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Date: Mon, 15 Aug 88 18:34 EDT

From: "(Roy R. Beatty) Keane, Inc. [BEATTYR] 302-774-0335 B-10217" 
Subject: CRYONICS Echoic Questions and Comments
To: ho4cad!kqb%
Status: RO

       I really appreciate your answers to my questions.  Not just for the
time it must have taken, but for sharing very personal information with us.
That took guts!

       Some more comments:

>      1) ALCOR was raided...  
       I'm glad to hear that ALCOR has won a legal victory, but I suspect
that more victories need to be won.  Legal battle is expensive enough to make
the military variety seem cheap.  Local government with rich taxpayer blood
to suck, can harass any business out of existence, be it ALCOR or the 
hairdresser down the street.

>      2) I don't have $20,000...
       Your financing solution seems like an obviously better bet than 
universal life insurance.  I'd like to know more about your trust arrangements,
but I'll understand if you want to maintain SOME privacy.  Also, over-all,
is ALCOR less expensive than American Cryonics Society (ACS) and Immortalist 
Society (IS)?

>      3) What paperwork...
       As it happens, my wife and I are "closing" on our first house next week.
May be I should sign up now when my paperwork tolerance is high.  My mind
wanders back to the neat movie "Brazil", an 1984-ish allegory or satire
where the requirements for forms can be used as weapons for the little guy.

>      4) What is Trans-Time...
       There was no answer at ACS's 800-524-4456 when I called.  I recall that
there was an article (last December?) in one of the pop-science mags about a 
whole body suspension performed by Trans-Time.  [A humorous aside, if I weren't
in the midst of moving, I'd quote my beloved "Devil's Dictionary" by Ambrose
Bierce concerning the mausoleum occupant's gluteas being nibbled by the root
of a rose bush.  But perhaps this mailing list is not the right place for
lugubrious humor.]

>      5) Who is Cryonix C. Hartman?
       Oh, so that's what he does.  I usually can't stand to be within 1000 
feet of an insurance salesman.  My attitude towards them has softened since 
my sister married one.  Sometimes I think I'm just not cut-out to be a bigot.
       Please keep me posted about upcoming conferences, especially on the 
east coast.

>      6) Is there any bad blood...
       Are Cryovita, Trans-Time, and the Cryonics Institute on better terms
than their non-profit counterparts?

>      7) Here are some statistics...
       Wow.  Again, I appreciated no-holds-barred reply.  More questions 
and comments:

a) Just how few of us are there in this mailing list?  (I realize it will
   grow --especially with the quality of information you provide!)

b) What percentage of cryonicists (a new spelling-checker entry for me) are
   male?  (Males predominate at libertarian gatherings, too.)

c) I, too, was libertarian.  I use the past tense because my views have not
   stood still for decades (I'm 34).  This week, I disparage labels altogether
   because they tend to prevent me from thinking for myself.  My views verge
   on anarchistic, viz, "*I'm* read for anarchy, and I'm just waiting for 
   everybody else."  Still, I hang around libertarians because I like the
   company of those who don't think I'm crazy.  I'm also a programmer,
   what else?

d) How does the "Immortalist" compare with "Cryonics"?  Is it necessary to 
   subscribe to both in order to stay informed?  What is the "Venturist
   Voice" and who or what ideas are they connected with?

e) Your quote from the Mahabharatta:
     "What is the greatest wonder of the world?
      That no one, though he sees others dying all around, believes he
      himself will die."
   is a good reason why suspension (or cryonics, the method) should be 
   popular.  Perhaps it is "before its time" because you just have to show 
   some people with their own eyes that a suspended person can be restored
   to life.

f) Your list of death's advantages is mis-labeled.  To be suspended is almost
   the worst thing that can happen to you.  Only dying without backup is 
   I showed my wife a listing of this conference so far.  It didn't win 
   her over (I didn't expect it to).  But it helped her to take the idea
   seriously.  She finds it uncomfortable to think about such preparations,
   and she has a notion that it's nice to have your whole body buried with
   your ancestors.  Please don't snicker, you silent readers out there, 
   Her motive may not be logical, but it is aesthetic.  

   I submit that inertia or tradition stands as the greatest barrier to
   spreading cryonics, freedom, or any other really worthwhile idea.
   "The hand that rocks the cradle rocks the Earth."  That can mean more 
   than selling the idea to your kids.  The idea must be sold to people
   respected by others.  Or, conversely, those who have bought the idea
   can become respected, exemplary people.  If you write well, sing well,
   or excel in anything, others will be drawn to your example.  This
   bit of wisdom is used by groups as diverse as the Mormons and the KGB.

   Under the rubric of repeat-business, Cryonics could score some points 
   if its proponents gave more consideration to the friends and relatives 
   of their patients.  Before the first restoration, suspension of a friend 
   or relative will feel just like death to the survivors.  There's no telling 
   when revival will occur, and you can't tell them that it will.  Grief,
   financial difficulties, memorial services, and wakes will continue, must be 
   planned for and should not be lightly dismissed.  Care should be taken
   that suspension is not in conflict with religious beliefs, just
   orthogonal (surely there's a better word).

   If anyone is really interested in exhorting the masses, I recommend
   checking out a Toastmasters club.  It's a network of people who want
   to improve their public speaking.  It's effective, it's friendly,
   and it's cheaper than the Dale Carnegie course.

g) Downloading, for now, is just talk.  So is any type of revival.  But
   suspension is here and now.  I recall in "Beyond Life" by James Branch
   Cabbell that the author says that his books are form him a personal 
   immortality, that his visions, thoughts, and humor will be carried
   in the brains of his readers.  He was popular in his day but is less
   so now.  But every now and then someone will pick up Jurgen...

h) Why did you pick ALCOR?

i) Are there any suspension organizations that operate overseas or 

       Again thanks for your replies.  I wonder if someone else out there
can dig out that Ambrose Bierce quote?


[ Roy, thanks for your comments and questions!  I'll respond to them after
  I finish up a posting on upcoming cryonics meetings and conferences.
  Any comments, questions, or news from anyone else? - Kevin Q. Brown ]

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