X-Message-Number: 10234
Date: Fri, 14 Aug 1998 08:31:59 -0700
From: Rand Simberg <>
Subject: Re: CryoNet #10222 - #10228
References: <>

> Values are not axiomatic. In order for something to be axiomatic, you must 
show that any attempt to prove them presupposes them. General human > values can
be derived from your requirements for survival as a human being and for your 
particular requirements for survival and flourishing =
> as an individual

So, are you arguing that Christianity is derivable from our general need for 
survival and flourishing (i.e., in the absence of any knowledge about

Christianity, one could predict it from general human physical needs), or are 
you arguing that Christianity is not a "human value"?  If the former,
please show me such a derivation, or if the latter, please "prove" it.

Bob Ettinger states:

> But
> heaven cannot be a fundamental goal; "fundamental" in my lexicon means built
> in by biology, essentially shared by everyone in a certain sense.

Well, with such a restricted definition of fundamental goal, it would seem to 
preclude .  In your sense, which is genotypical, the only fundamental

goal is to make sure that your genes are spread better than those of the guy in 
the next cave.  That doesn't require, art, science, heaven or, your
favorite, happiness.

I tend to define fundamental human goals as phenotypical, based on my empirical 
observations of human behavior.  Men and women have allowed the skin

to be slowly and totally flayed from their bodies rather than renounce their 
gods.  I don't think goals get much more fundamental than that.  You

may consider them mentally ill, but you can only "prove" that within the 
confines of your own tidy little world view, which is *not* universally

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