X-Message-Number: 10481 From: "Scott Badger" <> Subject: Cryonicism? Not! Date: Sun, 27 Sep 1998 18:03:19 -0500 If I understand correctly, George Smith appears to be suggesting that we market cryonics by turning it into a religious movement. With all due respect George, I must vehemently protest. And I find it peculiar that Mr. Donaldson alone responded by saying that it might be a good idea as a backup plan in case we ran into legal problems down the road. Scientology became a religion in ythe eyes of the government only a few years ago and it appears that this was primarily for tax purposes. George Smith is not talking about tax advantages though. We all know that there are similarities between religious systems and cryonics. Religion addresses our fear of death...so does cryonics. Religion soothes the pain we experience when a loved one passes away...so does cryonics. Religion offers us the hope of becoming more than we are, or transcending our selves...so does cryonics. But we CANNOT disguise cryonics as a religion. Religions make promises...cryonics does not. Religions have a central figure/savior/messiah...cryonics does not. Religion says, "You must accept our philosophy if you are to be saved."...cryonics does not. Religion involves worship...cryonics does not. Cryonics does not seek to replace anyone's religion. And if we were to attempt to do so we would face serious problems. It has been my understanding that cryonics is compatible with any religious belief system. If cryonics makes it possible for you to live for 5,000 years, you will *still* have to deal with your particular deity when your time *does* come. As for NDEs, I read a considerable amount regarding the research on NDEs. I was enthralled by the idea and the strong anecdotal evidence offered. Even so, veridical studies have been disappointing and it all smacks a bit too much of "New Ageism". George mentions the altered personalities of NDEers, and I can see where those who have experienced severe anoxia and then been revived might make some significant changes in their belief systems, but that doesn't make the afterlife a reality. Even so, only about 1/3 of those experiencing clinical death also experience an NDE. Why? These people typically have a profound, and renewed appreciation for life, and they no longer fear death because they are convinced there is an afterlife. That still doesn't make the afterlife a reality. Many are convinced that they have increased psychic abilities, but then again, they also start reading a lot more about such things and they *would* be expected to pay more attention to and be attuned to so-called "psychic phenomena". They would also be expected to make more out of coincidences than the average person. You see the problem. They're no longer objective and their bias disqualifies their revelations. And it still doesn't make the afterlife a reality. But I am not here to argue the existence or non-existence of an afterlife. I am suggesting that NDEs don't succeed in making the case one way or another. I also doubt that one who is brought back after 50 years will be substantially different from one who is brought back after 20 minutes of clinical death. But I guess we'll find out once the folks at 21CM work out reversible suspension. But back to my main point. Cryonics shoud be presented for what it is...a rational approach to life-extension. It should certainly not be couched in religious dogma. No religious symbols, no devotion, no promises, no savior. It's my bet that, ultimately, cryonics will be taken advantage of mostly by humanists with a lust for life and frankly, those are the people I want to hang around with in the future, anyway. Not someone who was conned into cryonics under religious pretenses. Best regards and long life, Scott Badger Rate This Message: http://www.cryonet.org/cgi-bin/rate.cgi?msg=10481