X-Message-Number: 1066 Date: Tue, 28 Jul 1992 10:57 MST From: Subject: Re: cryonics: #1061 Dear Charles: I too have run into versions of the "Life Force" argument, and I've never been able to successfully counter it--success being defined as getting the other party to even consider the validity of my (our) "mechanistic" view of living things. Yet "vitaliists" often treat machines as living things! For instance "That damn computer (or car, or vcr, etc,) just doesn't *want* to behave (operate) properly! Arrgh!" And note that your wife and agent are giving a mechanistic argument against cryonics working--they say that the level of damage sustained by a person (a little for a resuscitated drowning victim, a lot for a neurosuspension patient) determines whether the person's "spirit" continues to function/exist/hang around. Is the difference of opinion merely semantic? If a living thing is a "spirit" inhabiting a body, what determines when the "spirit" leaves or enters the body? Maybe you could genuinly ask them for details on this, and so get your wife and agent to think more about their ideas of life and consciousness. Why do they think that damage sustained in a cryonic suspension will cause the "soul" to quit, but other forms of damage won't? If their attitude boils down to "because cryonics has never been shown to work", then the only way to convince them is to conduct the experiment-- which is precisely what the suspendees are doing! So challenge them to answer the question themselves, by trying it. You might also point out that, historically, the vitalist view of the world has been losing ground almost continuously (with some backsliding now and then) for centuries; ancient animist philosophies considered all natural events to be controlled and activated by spirits or demons or angels, even such obviously (to modern eyes) mechanical phenomena as the motion of the planets and the flow of water. You might also ask them why being a machine is so bad--maybe they think all machines have to be clunky things with gears and levers. Well, this is a lot of advice from someone who started this letter my admitting that he's never successfully gotten an animist to consider the mechanistic viewpoint-- good luck! Mark Voelker Rate This Message: http://www.cryonet.org/cgi-bin/rate.cgi?msg=1066