X-Message-Number: 10928
From: "Olaf Henny" <>
Subject: Message #10923, Robert Ettinger & Oh That money :)
Date: Mon, 14 Dec 1998 10:28:47 -0800

Re: Message #10923
Date: Sun, 13 Dec 1998 12:52:26 EST
Subject: Oh That Money (was cheesecake)

>Olaf Henny used cheesecake supply/demand as an example of why money will
>disappear. He said that, to get a new variety, you would need to buy it
>the purveyor, hire someone to copy it, or buy/lease an AI device or program
>copy it. I think that, in this particular example at least, he overlooked a
>few things.

>First--at a certain phase of history--each individual is likely to have his
>own thinking/actuating machine, using air or sea water or soil or recycled
>waste as raw material. If he has a sample of the cheesecake, his machine
>make him all he wants. (I won't go into any possible patent problem.)

And how, pray tell will I obtain such a marvelous thinking/actuating
Will a generous philanthropic entity hand deliver it to me at the dewar? And
what will give this entity, be it individual, association or society as a
whole, the
wealth to perform such generous deed?  I am sure you will insist that the
will self-repairing and maintaining in perpetuity, provide me with all
duties, including a variety of food, the recipes, for which are no doubt
programmed already into it, knit [:)] my sweaters etc.  But what, if I want
something new, a bit more exotic?  It would of course analyze and copy it
me, IF I could provide a sample, but since I have no money, I would have to
beg, steal or highjack it somehow.

Fortunately Robert Ettinger's wonderful device is capable of producing a
highly sophisticated gun just for such a purpose (providing Thomas Nord
was not revived ahead of me and deprogrammed it for that particular
product), complete with instructions for use.  The latter are particularly
important, since not being American, I hardly know which end of a gun to
hold onto, leave alone how to operate it for its lethal purpose.

My question to Robert Ettinger is: Will your device also be able to furnish
me with the a century hence's equivalent of a car or a jet aircraft, so I
come and see you to mull over how it really turned out?"

>Second, there is likely to be such a flood of available variations on
>previously existing goods...

No new ones? - no progress? - Even cheesecake has evolve since my
birth.  :)

>and satisfactions that unsatisfied demand for anyparticular one will
> be near zero.
>Third, we will have a better understanding of the physiology of
>and will in many cases, if not in most, be able to create satisfaction
>directly--by signals in the brain--rather than indirectly, by arranging
>stimuli to create those signals. (I won't go into the complications or
>downside of this.)

If your future world is one, where we are doped into satisfaction/happiness,
 your are on your own.  I will head back into the dewar. :)

>Finally, without any formalized medium of exchange, there always remains
>possibility of some form of barter. In many circumstances, barter has
>overwhelming advantages over money. ...

The only one I can see in today's circumstance is tax avoidance.  But
barter is greatly facilitated by the use of a universally accepted barter
medium, i.e. money.

>Money depends on a widely agreed value...

So does everything else in a barter/trade system and the valuation of
money is generally much more concise, than that of any other goods or

>...on the dependable capability of a unit of money to buy things that are
>used and needed and to hire labor.
>The point Mr. Smith was making was that in
>a developed future money will not be needed for any of the routine goods
>services, and there will in general be no labor for hire, and therefore
>will have lost its value--it is no longer fungible.

The point George was making was: "There will be NO money"

>If "money" has potential
>usefulness only for trading unique things such as a particular planet or
>estate on that planet, then the person accepting the "money" in exchange
>the real estate has to figure out what he can do with that "money," and the
>list may be very short and uncertain.

I hope, that I have demonstrated above, that money will still be useable
for quite mundane things.  If I have to go scrounging through Mother
Moseley's garbage to obtain a sample of her cheesecake, so my
actuator can duplicate it, all I will get is stale cheesecake, with none of
that oven-freshness I was after.

>Of course, none of this changes John de Rivaz' point that it still makes
>to save and allocate money, because it will certainly be needed for a good
>while yet, and might be important for your safety.

I am glad you see it that way.   :)


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