X-Message-Number: 11110 From: Thomas Donaldson <> Subject: To Bob Ettinger re identity, and some comments for Richard Nunnally Date: Sat, 16 Jan 1999 00:00:16 +1100 (EST) To Bob Ettinger: When I said in one message that there was research going on now about both consciousness and identity, I intended to speak to everyone on Cryonet. If you want references to such research I'm happy to provide them. Dennett is only the advocate of one particular view on this matter. There is another strain of opinion/theory which suggests that some of our lower brain centers play an essential role: without input from other brain areas, and output to them, they will not alone produce consciousness, but they do have the feature that they receive and send to many higher brain areas. The possibility of knowledge when you are not conscious of it (as happens in some cases of brain damage, in which the patient guesses what he sees much better than chance but seems quite unable to identify it consciously) should also provide a hint of the processes involved. It's interesting and important, when we think about consciousness, to realize that we are not conscious of most of the operation of our own brain. As a long term subscriber to PERIASTRON, you could probably get together a set of references on these questions yourself from the articles there, but I'd be happy to provide them myself. To Richard Nunnally: You'll ultimately have to settle the issues your raise for yourself in your own mind. However I will add a few comments: first of all, the intent of cryonics is not just that we be frozen, but that we be revived, by our cryonics society or one of its successors. We're all in this together. And your cryonics society will do its best to see that you aren't badly done by. Moreover, it's very unlikely that in 2100 they will need damaged human subjects for experiments or anything else. It will be far simpler to create special devices/creatures/things for that purpose. Second, you mention "irreparable" damage. In terms of brain repair, and even brain improvement, there may be some things at any given time T which cannot be fixed, but when suspended you DO NOT HAVE TO BE REVIVED AT ANY FIXED TIME. If no one knows how to repair you in 2100, there's no reason why you must be revived just then. Wait another 50 or 100 years until that irrepairable feature becomes thoroughly repairable. It IS likely, unfortunately, that some or even all our memories and other such features may be irretrievably lost; but if we are revived at all then we will be at least as capable as anyone else in the society in which we are revived. If your brain has been damaged, you will only revive after it's been fixed. Incidentally, brain damage itself is now receiving lots of attention, with some interesting successes. Several ideas go into this, but one of the more prominent ones consists simply of implanting cells which turn into neurons and migrate to any spots where your neurons are missing. (This is not a dream of the future, it's something neuroscientists are working on NOW). We may well see repair of severed spinal cords, at least in cases in which the victim is treated quickly, within the next 10 to 20 years. But then brains are complex things, and it may take us much longer than many neuroscientists expect to be able to make a complete repair. Still, things are moving. Best and long long life to all, Thomas Donaldson Rate This Message: http://www.cryonet.org/cgi-bin/rate.cgi?msg=11110