X-Message-Number: 11331 From: Thomas Donaldson <> Subject: Yet another reply to Mike Perry Date: Sun, 28 Feb 1999 23:39:38 +1100 (EST) Hi Mike! This is a kind of provisional answer, mainly because I'm answering just before 12 midnight my time, and will check out your references tomorrow. First, thanks for the references to Bekenstein bounds, whatever they are. Second, I will point out that discreteness does not imply digitalness. Yes, atoms and electrons, when found, occupy DISCRETE positions in space, but this does not mean that those positions can be expressed DIGITALLY ie in a computer with a fixed length of numbers (if that is what you mean). There is one fundamental issue which affects our discussions. As you know, general relativity (and even special relativity) are neither discrete nor digital. Quantum mechanics is presently the theory in which notions such as discreteness make sense. Just how to put the two together remains unknown. General relativity tells us about space-time, and that is exactly where I come from when I make comments such as those in the previous paragraph. Given that electrons can have any velocity less than c, neither their position nor their velocity must be digital (in the sense I defined it), even though any PARTICULAR electron, when its wave function collapses, will have a discrete position (or velocity). As for the possibility of resurrecting all possible creatures able to fit into 5 cubic meters, I explained my response to that idea in my previous message: I cannot imagine much that is as senseless as that, even if the world IS digital. Nor do I see it as having any moral value. If we, as cryonicists, truly want to resurrect all those for whom resurrection is possible, then the way to go is to study the effects of cryopreservation by all the methods so far used, especially their effects on human brains. And second, study brains with particular interest in how their chemistry and anatomy link together, so as to allow us to infer the proper state of a brain damaged by present, past, or even future faulty cryopreservation. (The chemistry is particularly important: it will not be enough simply to look at electron micrographs. We already can distinguish some kinds of neuron from others solely from their chemistry, and this ability extends to fragments of neurons). At present the required knowledge (a complete database covering all these questions for all kinds of neurons) does not yet exist. When it does, we will be able to infer connections and even the EXISTENCE of neurons which no longer exist after faulty cryopreservation. In some cases, we will NOT be able to do this; since there is probably some redundancy, we may still be able to recover the person. And yes, in some sad cases there may not be enough information to recover the original person or anyone like them... even with the kind of understanding of brains and cryopreservation damage which we will then have. In those worst cases, we then go to the statement made in that patient's original cryonics signup papers: just what should be done in the event of such and such level of damage. And if the patient asked to be revived regardless, then they should be revived. If the patient placed conditions on his or her revival, then follow those conditions. To revive such a patient against that patient's expressed wishes should not be done. To follow those wishes seems to me the most moral activity. As for those who were never frozen, everything I know suggests that the knowledge we need to revive them has now been lost and will not prove recoverable without some great change in our current ideas on physics, enough to allow further means of inferring the past state of a person. Yes, our current physics has some large gaps, among which is the one I described above. I hope to see those gaps filled. But I will also say that even then we may find that our physics still will not allow recovery --- whoever said the world was friendly to us? Best and long long life to all, Thomas Donaldson Rate This Message: http://www.cryonet.org/cgi-bin/rate.cgi?msg=11331