X-Message-Number: 11468
From: "Garry Wright" <>
Subject: Physics of information loss and comments on belief in cryonics
Date: Fri, 26 Mar 1999 22:32:03 -0000

In reply to Robert Ettinger, Message #11453:

> In fact, although I can't prove it (maybe I could if I were
> smarter or/and had more time available), I tend strongly to think that
> information is conserved in the universe, and approximately conserved in
> any reasonably large and nearly closed system.

I am sorry to say that well established physics say you are wrong.
Information is lost, and what is more, this is the most fundamental law of
the
Universe!  This is another way of stating the second law of thermodynamics,
which always applies, even in a closed and collapsing Universe.  For a good
explanation of this last point see 'The Emperor's New Mind' by Sir Roger
Penrose.

I also agree with Leon Dean, Message #11454, that there is no reason other
than selfishness for cryonics.  For civilisation to not stagnate, it
depends on
change and evolution.  Mike Perry, Message #11463, suggests that
'primitive'
individuals will be 'upgraded' to the latest specification.  I think that
this superior
intelligence will not be the same person, apart from sharing some memories.

Sir Arthur C Clarke says that we change throughout our lives anyway, and I
agree with him totally.  You would have to actually be religious and
believe in a
supernatural unchanging soul, to think that an upgraded version of yourself
would
be the same person.

The relatively new theory of memetics suggests that the very concept of
self is
an illusion - merely the result of Darwinian evolution of so called memes. 
The
concept of a conscious self is a powerfull meme for obvious reasons.  There
are
experiments, also described in Penrose's book, that demonstrate that we do
not
actually possess free will.

Having said all this, I am not against anyone who wishes to be preserved,
and I
wish the movement well.  It is certainly a more interesting thing to do
with a dead
body than burning or burying it.  I just think that it is pointless, and
the efforts of
these intelligent people could be better utilised in trying to create the
next level of
intelligence, rather than trying to preserve the current one beyond its
usefullness.

Garry Wright
England

Rate This Message: http://www.cryonet.org/cgi-bin/rate.cgi?msg=11468