X-Message-Number: 11956 From: Thomas Donaldson <> Subject: what does this author REALLY say about memes? Date: Mon, 14 Jun 1999 19:18:33 +1000 (EST) To John de Rivas: I've always felt that "memes" is just a buzz-word for something can just as well be described as an "idea" or a "behavior". The main problem is that even if you call it by a similar word, you do not then get the same kind of behavior as a "gene". Yes, people inherit both ideas and behaviors, and sometimes try to get others to take them up. Whether that actually tells us anything crucial is another matter entirely. Among other problems, they are not passed on with anywhere near the same certainty as we pass on our genes. Sometimes children quite deliberately choose to act differently from their parents, for instance. Or even differently from those around them. There is always an interaction between the person and the ideas or behavior, none of these things will be taken up with no questioning at all. And of course, the more different an idea or behavior is from one to which an individual already adheres, the harder it will be to move them over. (But that also depends on the individual: some eagerly accept new ideas and behavior, others do not). Not only that, but people who accept an idea may well do so in a form comfortable to them, not precisely the form it was given to them. Moreover I've never really been able to break ideas or behaviors down into nice little units which deserve the name of memes. They get fuzzy when we look at the different beliefs and behaviors of different people, even if those people believe that they hold to the original quite firmly. It's not enough to say that someone is a Christian. It's not even enough to say that they are American Catholic Christians. Or for that matter, that someone is a cryonicist. So tell me: does this author really deal with these issues? If she can really USE the idea of memes rather than just the word, I'm interested. Otherwise not. Best and long long life, Thomas Donaldson PS: If you want a good explanation of the different kinds of altruism, you might read some of the ideas about how evolution and natural selection can produce different varieties of altruism --- and in human beings, more complex varieties than in simpler animals. Rate This Message: http://www.cryonet.org/cgi-bin/rate.cgi?msg=11956