X-Message-Number: 13137
From: Daniel Ust <>
Subject: Re: 13120 A hard comment for those who want to freeze embryos
Date: Mon, 24 Jan 2000 12:56:12 -0500

On Sat, 22 Jan 100 00:23:52 +1100 (EST) Thomas Donaldson
>I note the interest in suspending embryos (aborted ones, especially) by
several cryonicists. The strongest reason given for 
>such activity is that our doing so may help recruitment, though one
cryonicist does openly admit a bias toward "pro-life" ideas 
>as pro-life is understood outside immortalism and cryonics (We are ALL
pro-life here, though perhaps not as most people 
>mean it!).

That is not the strongest reason.  Getting more funding is the strongest
reason.  More funding means, to me, more research and a greater chance of
success - or finding out that this stuff doesn't work and reinvesting our
resources elsewhere.

>This is all very well, but so far the main means to increase the number of
cryonicists consists of talking to those you know. 
>And yes, that is slow, not least because most people arent really all that
talkative about their deepest feelings. This raises a 
>question in my own mind about just why the idea of suspending aborted
embryos has become so popular on Cryonet.  I 
>personally doubt very much that it will get us any more cryonicists than
any other idea for rapid promotion has done so far. 

Maybe so, but that remains to be seen.  I think it's worth trying simply
because it's a means of tapping into a segment of society that is very
different from the typical cryonics crowd - from what I've seen on the net
and in the flesh.  Also, atypical from what a lot of other growth or revenue
schemes I've read about - e.g., getting celebrities or the superrich to sign
on - recommend.  Also, the cost of cryopreserving fetuses would seem to be,
at current rates, much smaller simply because they take up less space and
would require less prep.  (Correct me if I'm wrong on either point.)

>That is, only a very small number, even relative to the present number of
>OK guys, we lack numbers even though we dont lack intelligence. And at the
same time, the number of cryonicists IS 
>growing --- not so fast that we can win the next (or even the one after
that) election with a cryonicist candidate, but IN 

I believe that growth is there, though I've not seen any good numbers
attached to that.  Anyone here have any numbers on this?

>It is very hard indeed to convince people of an important idea fundamental
to their personal world-view. The best we can 
>expect is exponential growth, with a relatively high (compared to most)
exponential factor. And our success depends not on 
>majority vote but on our own activities: supporting research, increasing
the number of sites able to accomplish complete 
>suspensions, and all that other dogwork that is needed.

Huh?  I, for one, don't think it would be necessary to get a majority of
people of any nation on board here.  I'm only looking for ways to increase
funding and numbers.  Where did the "majority vote" comment come from?

>And if you want to consider using a presently out-of-style version of
history, just recall that Toynbee found that the longest-
>lived changes took generations to become dominant. Christianity did not
convert everyone in the Roman Empire 5 years after 
>Christ was crucified.

So?  I'm not disagreeing with the point that a lot of social-cultural
changes, especially lasting ones, take a long time.  But this should not
make people here complacent - just keep doing what you're doing and
everything will be fine.  I don't think Thomas is advocating complacency,
but I do think there's a tendency on this list to shoot down any new
approach to marketing cryonics.  We've all seen it.  With this subject,
there was even one post that seemed to say, "Well, we talked about that five
years ago while passing a joint and decided it to keep it secret and never
ever actually do anything to make it happen."  

I'm engaging in hyperbole to underscore a point here.  And that is that very
much has been talked about, little has been tried.  I understand too, we're
not marketing gurus here, but let's contact some.  Let's try to see what we
can do beyond talking about it, to promote cryonics.  (I know a lot of you
are doing more than that.  I also know some of your are involved in
technical research or running organizations.  No offense to anyone here, but
those things are not the same are promotion, which is why companies have
marketing and sales departments - apart from R&D and operations.:)

Currently, I'm still putting out feelers to the more sober parts of the
"right-to-life" crowd as a sort of poor man's market research.

Best of health to all!

Daniel Ust
http://mars.superlink.net/neptune/ <http://mars.superlink.net/neptune/> 

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