X-Message-Number: 13350 Date: Thu, 02 Mar 2000 22:11:17 -0700 From: Kitty Antonik-Raastad <> Subject: Re: CryoNet #13342 Biased viewpoints and guru supporting References: <> <> You sure are hot tonight! Paul Wakfer wrote: > > Message #13342 > > From: "George Smith" <> > > References: <> > > Subject: A few clarifications and observations respectully submitted > > Date: Wed, 1 Mar 2000 11:37:28 -0800 > > > > Clarifications and observations interspersed below: > > > > In Message #13336 Paul Wakfer wrote on the subject:Re: CryoNet #13305 sound > > bites > > > > > > > > > Message #13305 > > > > From: > > > > Date: Fri, 25 Feb 2000 21:18:02 EST > > > > Subject: sound bites > > > > > > > > [snip] > > > > > > Robert Ettinger pushed the following "viewpoint as 'the' key to > > > life". > > > > > > > we can say some relevant things with > > > > considerable confidence: > > > > ----- > > > > If you don't try, you are less likely to succeed. > > > > > > This is a mere tautology > > > > Yet the tautology does describe a relevant truth we can state with > > "considerable confidence". I could use some logic lessons; ie what is "tautology". I was too tired to remember to ask this before. > > > So does "If you try, then you are more likely to succeed", > or "If you do not succeed, then you may not have tried". > So what? I don't follow you on this one. If someone does not try, how can they ever succeed? > > > > > > For the optimists to be right, only one approach need work. For the > > > > pessimists to be right, every approach must fail. > > > > > > For cryonics to succeed, every individual part of a series of highly > > complex processes must work > > > correctly. For cryonics to fail, only one part of one of those highly > > complex processes needs to > > > fail. > > > > This is conjecture stated as fact. It is actually only a personal opinion. > > No. As stated, and lacking other conditions, it *is* a fact. > > > For example, there seem to be non-linear patterns with redundancies which > > work despite failures. A launched missile is over 99% of the time off > > target but is corrects its trajectory as it goes. > > The "mid-course" corrections were already included as part of the "series of highly complex processes". > > > The human body is constantly "failing" as cells die. Yet we generally > > continue breathing for quite a few years - another example of non-linear > > patterns with redundancies as cells continue to reproduce and replace the > > failures in the highly complex process we call the human body. > > They are only "local" failures. The operation of the human body is a "series of highly complex > processes" which have been organized and developed by evolution over billions of years. Those processes > are only acutely successful at fixing local failures. In time they fail to prevent the chronic, global > decline and disintegration of the system. > > The goal of life-extension sciences is to modify the body's homeostatic processes, either internally, > externally, or through migration to new hardware, in order to prevent the chronic, global failure of the > hardware which is the mind's container, processor, and interface to external reality. > > The goal of cryonics is to capture the state of the mind with as high fidelity as possible and to store > it until recovery, and life-extension sciences have the ability to restore it to full function in > hardware capable of chronic homeostasis. > > > > > In the sweep of history, the can-do surprises have overwhelmed the > > can't-do > > > > surprises. > > > > > > Nonsense! This totally ignores the myriad of inventions, processes, > > businesses, discoveries, > > > etc. which are never amount to anything and are, thus, never heard of and > > certainly not recorded > > > by history. In science for example, negative results are seldom published. > > > > > > > The fact that these unknowns never amounted to anything is why they are > > overwhelmed by those that have. > > Again you have missed the point. The number of unknown failures is vastly more than the number of > failures which were noted as "surprises". > It is only the *noted* failures which were overwhelmed by the successes. This is merely a result of the > "If at first you don't succeed, try, try again!" principle being intentionally applied to highly > important goals. It says nothing about lessor, or largely unpublicized goals which might have lead to > highly important ones if they had succeeded, but about which we know little or nothing simply because > the whole idea was a non-starter for one reason or another. It is possible that reversible suspended > animation by means of vitrification may become such a lost failure. > For example, there are multiple ways to achieve space travel which have never been tried. It is entirely > possible that if we had taken the path to try one such many decades ago, we might now be much further > into space than we are. Similarly, if evolution had taken certain different pathways millions of years > ago, there might now be a race of near-immortal, sentient creatures populating this planet. > > > > Paul Wakfer > > > > > > ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > > > > It is all too easy to proclaim our opinions as facts. > > With a biased viewpoint, it is all too easy to think that real facts are merely opinions and can somehow > be invalidated by the force of one's mindset. > > > It is even easier to miss what someone says when it clashes with our present > > beliefs. > > It is still easier again to support someone's utterings because of their "guru" status within a cult. > > > If you catch me doing either one in the future, please correct me as well. > > This message is notice that you have been "caught" and corrected. > > > George Smith > > www.cryonics.org > > -- Paul -- The remaining above was well done. 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