X-Message-Number: 135 From att!saqqara.cis.ohio-state.edu!compuserve.com!72320.1642 Mon Nov 6 09:22:34 1989 Received: by saqqara.cis.ohio-state.edu (5.61/4.891102) id AA26077; Mon, 6 Nov 89 09:22:27 -0500 Date: 06 Nov 89 00:41:33 EST From: STEVE BRIDGE <> To: KEVIN <> Subject: CRYONICS -- cryonicists and Nazis Message-Id: <"891106054132 72320.1642 EHI42-2"@CompuServe.COM> [ The following message was originally sent about 6 weeks ago but somehow never reached my machine and it had to be sent again. My apologies for the delay. - KQB ] TO: Kevin Originally sent 9-28-89, re-sent 11-5-89 It is pretty bizarre reading Andrew Klossner's contention that there is some essential conflict between cryonics and humanity, that "one must triumph and one must perish." Besides the comic book melodrama writing style, the man apparently understands very little about real cryonics in this country. Unfortunately, it appears that Mark Robert Thorson may be equally ignorant and may himself be creating an unnecessary ruckus. What is this "Cryonics Nation" crap anyway? It is possible that Klossner is making all of this stuff up in his mind, I suppose, since I have not seen the previous conversations. But what concerns me more is that there may indeed be some irresponsible and disturbed cryonics "fans" (not actual cryonicists) who are making these proposals that Klossner is reacting to. WHO is saying that a depopulated Earth is a goal? And who is proposing involuntary sterilization? No one that I have ever met. If true, that would indeed be an unconscionable violation of individual liberties. What kind of "cryonicists" are on this "alt.cyberpunk" anyway? It sounds like they may be merely cryonics dilettantes, involved in the discussion because the argument sounds like fun, not because they are seriously involved in cryonics. Assuming their proposals somehow speak for the cryonics movement as a whole is like thinking that the speeches of a high school class president make U.S. foreign policy. Anyone who portrays cryonics as being in conflict with the normal goals of humanity is badly misguided and completely wrong. Cryonics isn't a religion or philosophy or political statement. It is simply a technology. It seems very reasonable that at some point in the future (100-500 years) the normal human lifespan will be measured in terms of centuries rather than decades. Some few people in the world today have decided that being dead doesn't sound like much fun and that cryonics may give them a non-zero chance of being alive in an interesting distant future. But that distant future will exist whether cryonics survives or not. Cryonicists are very interested in the continued, peaceful existence of humanity, of course, since if humanity wipes itself out, we have nothing to come back to. And there would be no one to thaw us out! But I have not spoken to one single cryonicist who believes that there is some kind of way that cryonicists will take over humanity in any form, much less try to wipe out most of it. Anyone who is proclaiming that is speaking from his own delusions of grandeur, and does not in any way speak for cryonicists as a whole. Perhaps I should introduce myself. I am Steve Bridge, from Indianapolis IN. I am a children's librarian by profession, and I am the Midwest Coordinator for the Alcor Life Extension Foundation. Alcor is probably the largest and most influential cryonics group in the country right now. I have been involved in cryonics for about 13 years now, and I know all of the leaders in Alcor very well. I also know most of the leaders of the American Cryonics Society (except Avi Ben- Abraham), and I have met and corresponded with Bob Ettinger of the Cryonics Institute many times. Comparing cryonicists with Nazis or Communists or any other group which has prevented the expression of individuality is completely wrong- headed. Cryonics is not a cult or unilateral movement of any kind. A cult would imply (to me) that some leadership is trying to get people to follow their philosophy and politics and to believe no other way. The cult would try to dictate the actions and thought of its members. In the real world of cryonics, though, we can't get agreement on what time it is or where to have lunch, much less on philosophical approaches. If anything, the average cryonicist tends to be a libertarian, even somewhat of an anarchist. "Live and let live and stay out of my face"is their basic philosophy and they only in turn wish to be left alone to follow the dictates of their individual consciences. The only thing you could get any cryonicists to agree on is that they want the choice in disposition of their remains after legal death. They want to have them frozen in the chance they will not be seen as "dead" by future generations. Getting agreement on any other single statement is nearly impossible. Heck, recently, we couldn't get nine people to agree on the wording for a simple statement to the effect that we believe the human personality is essentially contained within the brain. How we could possibly think we could take over the world? In addition, from a purely technical standpoint, the entire argument about cryonicists somehow "getting nanotechnology" and using it to control the minds of others is hilarious. Cryonicists are not going to develop nanotechnology. It is being developed right now in the universities and corporations all over The U.S. and Japan. Sony and Xerox and Dow and Genetec will have nanotechnology. And, of course, the GOVERNMENT will have it. (There, you want a REALLY scary idea?) That means the military, the CIA, and various Oliver North types who think they are protecting us somehow by taking away our individual freedoms. Cryonicists will be as much at the mercy of these political/industrial whims as anyone else. No matter how well things go, if cryonics works, it be as a mere "side effect" of nanotechnology. The idea of cryonics is about as far away from nazism and communism as it is possible to get. If we want anything philosophically from the future, it is the freedom of choice -- the freedom to choose life instead of death, the freedom to choose a life style that fits our curiosities and personalities. I am not saying that every person involved in cryonics is a sweet, benevolent person who wouldn't dream of inflicting his ideas on you. Of course, in any large group there will be those who insist that YOU WILL CHANGE and WE WILL CHOOSE YOUR CHANGES. But in cryonics, those characters are comparatively few and have no power. They may well be VOCAL; but you will just have to guard against that as with any other pushy person. Finally, I would like to advise Andrew Klossner, Mark Thorson, and anyone else in on this conversation to write or call the Alcor Life Extension Foundation and ask for our free information pack. This will include an excellent book, CRYONICS: THRESHOLD TO TOMORROW, which is a reasonable explanation of cryonics, with plenty of discussion of social issues. I'm sure if you have deep hostility toward cryonics this won't entirely take that away. But it seems clear that several of you are arguing without the entire story. Let's at least argue from a similar body of knowledge. Contact: Alcor Life Extension Foundation 12327 Doherty Street Riverside CA 92503 1-800-367-2228 Please forward this reply along to anyone who might find it interesting. Thank you, Steve Bridge () Rate This Message: http://www.cryonet.org/cgi-bin/rate.cgi?msg=135