X-Message-Number: 13876
Date: Fri, 09 Jun 2000 13:24:29 -0400
From: James Swayze <>

Subject: RE: Affordability, supply & demand, advertising, life insurance and LN2
References: <>


RE: Affordability, supply & demand, advertising, life insurance and LN2 
evaporation

All,


Let me first apologize to everyone as this is going to be a long one...I hope. 
;)


I've been watching the various arguments going back and forth regarding the high
cost

of cryonics and the reasonable causes for it. The word reasonable here really 
only

applies for those of us who understand the worth of cryonics and the 
possibilities

for the future and who are able to overlook the fact it is not yet proven. For 
the
uninformed person the cost is certainly not reasonably explained. When I say

uninformed I refer to, I would hazard a guess, 99.99% of the worlds population. 
I
would guess also that less than 1% of the worlds population has even heard of
cryonics mush less understand it.


When I tell someone about it most often they know nothing about it or they say 
"Oh do

you mean cryogenics?". Misnaming the term is a clear indication of their level 
of
misunderstanding. Out of the general population of the world, not just the

technologically developed countries, how many people are even science fiction 
fans I
wonder? I would bet that far less than those are scientifically informed.

It should come as no surprise that cryonics is not widely known. How much media
coverage does it really get? Not much. The occasional ill informed treatment by

hollywood. These are hardly ever positive...take the "Phantasm 3" movie as an 
example

or even "Austin Powers" (the first one). I watch every science and technology 
show I

can find time for on the science oriented cable channels. To date I've seen less
than
a half dozen documentaries that mention cryonics. I've never seen one dedicated

solely to cryonics. Would a documentary solely dedicated to cryonics be helpful?
Yes,

but only a little because it won't reach your average person especially if they 
are

tuned into some mind numbing sitcom. Let's face it most people only want to 
escape

the reality of their quiet lives of desperation. They don't want to deal with 
reality

or their mortality, just take their minds off the serious for a few hours then 
back
to the reality of surviving another day. Many people can't even be persuaded to

provide themselves adequate health care insurance and life insurance or 
retirement
for "normal" circumstances let alone something clearly outside the envelope.


We need a "Mission Impossible 2" or a "Raiders of the Lost Ark" for cryonics! We
need

a block buster movie that most people will go see that is centered strongly 
around

cryonics. Has it been done? Some would say yes and I can think of two movies 
where

cryonics was central to the story, but I'd say they weren't what I am calling 
for. In

the first place neither could be considered block buster. In the second neither 
were

even close to accurate. In the third their plots drifted far from the mechanism 
of
how the characters got where they wound up.


Cryonics must be central to the story. Also it would be a good opportunity to 
deal

with the religious and environmental objection issues. Perhaps a story where a 
hero

comes back to save the earth from destruction and had he not been frozen all are

doomed. Maybe the hero is secretly frozen because some religious zealots teamed 
with

wrongly informed anti technology environmental zealots manage to outlaw 
cryonics.

Here is an opportunity to make the general public sympathetic to the legal 
issues

involved such as estate preservation and the rest. The use of nanotechnology can
be

introduced to show reason for hope that, though unproved, cryonics will work. 
Not

that it requires nano but nano should be made more widely understood as well. 
Perhaps
the hero has the key to anti aging and relative immortality but dies before

perfecting it for general use or something such. This is another method to 
showcase

what cryonics is truly about...immortalism! I know we have among us the 
imagination
and talent to put something of this nature together.


After cryonics becomes more widely known then the factors of supply and demand 
can be

considered as applying. Then advertising can come into play and not be such a 
risk.

Personally I think a suspension should cost about $10,000. It should be close to
the

cost of a funeral but not ridiculously low. People should have to pay enough to 
take

it seriously. It's something that requires advanced planning. Funerals are often
left

to be paid for by relatives and especially the children of the deceased. I doubt
that

funeral insurance already in existence, so called purple shield, is widely 
purchased.

For one thing the commercials for it are down right morbid. Again no one wants 
to be

reminded of their mortality. However, cryonics needn't be considered so. It 
should be

advertised as simply putting life on hold for a time. A commercial could easily 
make

note of a number of scientific and medical advances that relate to cryonics that
the

potential user can see as incentives. Anti aging and advances in the curative 
powers

of modern medicine are but a few. It could be pointed out that cures for cancer 
and
other diseases are on the increase and so those that are suffering it or have

relatives that are would be made to see the benefit of putting "life on hold" 
until

they are available. An analogy that anyone can relate to is the rapid advance of

aeronautics. For instance an announcer could say, "We've progressed from no 
flight at

all to space travel in a single lifetime and more is yet to come. Imagine 
friends

what we can do with medicine! Why miss out when it what you need could be just 
around
the corner".

Now what about insurance? Funeral insurance exists, why not straight cryonics

insurance? Perhaps someone who knows the working risk mechanism for funeral 
insurance

could help us here. How about group plans? The risk factor for the insurer would
of

course be greater than normal life insurance because potentially every client 
wants
to use the service.  Not everyone will be able to though. This is so for those

involved in cryonics now. I'm reminded of the recent deaths of friends of this 
list

that were not able to be suspended. The number who would be unfortunate enough 
to be

in the wrong place at death to be suspended would of course go up if the cost 
were
brought down so more people could be involved. This might provide the margin an
insurer needs. Another incentive for people to choose such a policy and for an

insurer to offer such a policy could be that the policy would convert to a 
standard

funeral policy at a much lower cost to the insurer should they be unfortunate 
enough
to not be in the right place at death.


Cryonics needs to be shared with more regular people. Right now we who are 
interested

are a tiny tiny minority, even smaller yet are those actually signed up. We can 
be
perceived of as being elitist. I'm reminded of the bitter sentiment fostered in

everyday folk by the extreme right politically towards the so called elitist 
left.

I'd hate for the same to be used against cryonics enthusiasts. As long as it is 
not
widely understood the unknown becomes fodder for the deathists to use against
cryonics and immortalism. We need to come down from our crystal palace on the

mountain and share our dream with the common folk. Not that any of us would want
to

keep it to ourselves, but price and lack of general knowledge alone accomplish 
that
well enough.


Now as to some of the causes of the high cost. It shouldn't be the 
responsibility of

the cryonics organization to keep a trust for reanimation nor for preservation 
of

estate. Right now it's necessary because of the legalities involved. I feel that
if

cryonics became more widely known and hence the legal land mines as well, people

would begin to vote them out of existence. Perhaps reanimation should remain the

responsibility of the cryonics firm but maybe it could be elective. Maybe some 
would

pay less and take their chances that the medical industry would provide the 
means. Or

perhaps another industry could evolve to fill this niche. Along with putting 
away

something for estate preservation people might  opt to entrust seed money to 
some
investment firm made especially for this purpose. This would have the effect of

removing from general knowledge the often asked question or remark I've heard 
from

the uninitiated, such as, "Oh I heard of a cryonics company that was only in it 
for

the dead peoples money" or "I've heard of that....I just thought it was a scam 
to get

hold of the estates of foolish dreamers". An investment firm made solely for the

purpose of cryonics patient's estate preservation could both create wealth for 
the

suspended customer and profit for the firm from a minimal investment. This is so

especially if they took the very long term view. Removing this responsibility 
from
the cryonics firm should result in a savings from lowered legal costs, less

paperwork, fewer lawsuits and I'm sure the more imaginative than I can think of 
more.

Such an investment firm could gather the strength to take on the legal issues

involved. It would have the power and the political clout to fight and lobby for

delicate issues such as cloning. Even more power, wealth and profit could be 
gained

by the same type of firm or consortium of like firms by also providing the 
cryonics
insurance policies. Relieving cryonics firms from these responsibilities and
headaches should free them to expend their moneys and energies more on research
product improvement.


Now as to LN2 evaporation, I believe there has to be a better way. Thanks to 
those

that took the time to explain the physics to me. I've been chewing that nut for 
days

now. Being a problem solving type person it just bugs the hell out of me the 
amount

of waste this process involves. I find it so hard to believe that a closed 
system

couldn't be made and made to be cheaper in the long run. Emphasis on long term 
here.

I have in mind a system that refrigerates and recompresses the evaporated gas 
back to

a liquid in a closed loop recirculating system. Heat can be scavenged in many 
ways

and can even be used to provide some of the power such as with materials that 
use a

temperature differential to produce electric current. The additional power 
needed can

be derived from solar, wind power, hydro-electric or geothermal depending on the

area.  With Alcor for an example, solar and wind I believe are good candidates 
for
their location. The right combination would have them totally off grid and even
selling some power back even with some stored for reserves.


I think the cheapest would be a linked system where each dewar would not have 
it's

own closed loop. There would of course be pressure safety valves in redundancy. 
There

would also be a backup or two for the recirculation/recooling apparatus. Heat 
leaking

into the dewars could be kept to a minimum by lowering their outside environment

temperature. It seems to me they should be kept in a well below freezing 
refrigerated

room to begin with. Having this exist below ground where the temperature is 
lower and
constant helps even more. It makes it safer as well.

All you engineers tell me if this is a viable start on a system. First the

evaporating gas enters an expansion chamber to immediately deal with the 
pressure. To

turn heat into mechanical energy the gas could pass through a turbine at the 
near

end. To further convert heat the other end could be a piston that the gas would 
push

to turn more of the heat energy into mechanical energy. Plenty of devices could 
be

attached to scavenge this energy back into the loops apparatus. An alternative 
could
be a chamber with a balloon inside. As the balloon fills with N gas it expands

against the walls of the chamber reducing the area for normal air. This air is 
pushed

out past another turbine as an alternative to the piston method for converting 
some

of the heat energy. A second like chamber would be connected so that as one 
inflates

the compressed normal air flows to the other to collapse the balloon full of N 
of the

other chamber. In alternating fashion the expansion energy of one helps conduct 
the N

to the next stage. One-way valves and alternating valves help control this. Also
the

materials used for balloon and chamber can be such as to exploit the temperature

differential method of creating electrical current, even further robbing heat 
energy
from the gas.


The next stage is a heat exchanger where refrigerated coolant further cools the 
N

gas. Now from here it goes through the process that I assume normally creates 
LN2. I

don't know how this is done except that compressing it is involved. Some help 
here
please providing I'm not totally off my rocker.


On the other hand, here's a thought. Buy a LN2 production plant and keep 
replacing
boiled off LN2. I don't mean a factory. Read the following then go to
www.cryomech.com/lnp.html.


______________________________________________________________________________________________

Description:


Cryomech, Inc. manufactures reliable, fully automatic 10 and 40 liter per day 
Liquid
Nitrogen Plants

(LNP's). The LNPs require only electrical power and compressed air to produce 
LN2. A
nitrogen

generator separates nitrogen from the other components of the air, without any 
moving
parts. The

98% pure nitrogen flows into a 35 or 160 liter dewar, where it is liquefied at 
the
cold end of either

our AL60 or AL200 Cryorefrigerator. The liquid level in the dewar is 
automatically
controlled and

observable at all times to the operator. The LN2 is easily transferred from the 
dewar
using the low

loss, vacuum insulated extraction valve and line conveniently located on the 
dewar.
The LNPs have

been designed for ease of operation and do not require a full-time, trained 
operator.


Cryomech, Inc. extends a warranty on all parts and workmanship for three years 
or
8,000 hours,

whichever comes first, after satisfactory installation, provided the owner 
(operator)
operates the
equipment according to the specifications and operating procedures set forth by
Cryomech.


______________________________________________________________________________________________


This device is about the size of a paint shop air compressor. Pipe the nitrogen 
rich

boiled off air to the plane and make it even more efficient. Oh btw, guess what 
else
they make?


______________________________________________________________________________________________


Cryomech, Inc. manufactures single and two stage cryorefrigerators based on both
the

Gifford-McMahon and the Pulse Tube Cycles. The Pulse Tube Cryorefrigerator 
obtains
cryogenic temperatures as low as 2.7K without displacer motion, eliminating

vibrations and increasing mean time between maintenance. All two stage units 
supply

cooling below 10K with a higher temperature stage to cool shields, leads and 
supports

to 30-80K. Our single stage cryorefrigerators now cool to minimum temperatures 
of

approximately 10K, with the largest unit producing a maximum cooling capacity of
300

watts at 77K . Cryomech, Inc. manufactures water and air cooled compressors for 
each
cryorefrigerator. Cryomech, Inc. has manufactured cryorefrigerators since 1963.


Cryomech's Standard Gifford-McMahon Cycle Cryorefrigerators are either single or
two

stage. The AL-Series single stage G-M's, reach a low temperature of 25K in 20 
minutes

and are maximized for price and capacity from 10-80K. The GB-Series two stage 
G-M's,

cool down to 6.5K on the second stage with another stage, the first stage, which

supplies cooling from 10-80K. When cooling devices to below 20K, the second 
stage of

the G-M supplies the 20K while the first stage supplies the power to intercept 
heat
at a higher temperature, therefore unloading the second stage.


_______________________________________________________________________________________________


Now all that's left to do is hook these up to a constant FREE power source. How 
hard
can it be? ;)

James Swayze

--
"Quod de futuris non est determinata omnino veritas"
       NOSTRADAMUS 15TH Century

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