X-Message-Number: 14006
Date: Tue, 27 Jun 2000 14:08:22 -0900
From: "John  M Grigg" <>
Subject: Re: Extropian Religion (some ideas to go about it)

Hello everyone,


I just wanted to share a post of mine from the Extropian list.  I think it 
covers some interesting subjects... :)

best wishes,

John Grigg


On Tue, 27 Jun 2000 11:49:58  
Brent Allsop wrote:
>
>
>Alex,
>
>> Besides, this will also really confuse the liberals-- "What? Those
>> Techno-Libertarians are *helping* people? How low can they sink?"
>

Brent wrote:
Yes, exactly!

you continue:

Which would you rather have: a bit earlier chance to go to and Terra-form mars, 
up-load to a million times more intelligent/conscious and growing platform, and 
so on and so forth alone, having many of your loved ones information 
theoretically dead and gone, or would we be much happier if they too, or at 
least as many as possible, were first saved before we went off and did some of 
this fun stuff all alone?  People and all loved ones are more important than 
anything else if you ask me.
(end)


Brent, I totally agree with you on this.  Your last line hit me really hard.  
The ties of friends and family are what life is all about.  


Of course, trying to get friends and family signed up for cryonics can be very 
hard to do!  I have read the accounts of those here and on Cryonet which show 
how challenging it is to confront/work with memes that say death is part of the 
natural cycle of life, or that God only wants us to live our present lifespans.


I have shared my interest in cryonics with my mother and younger brother 
Mike(age 25).  My mom finds it odd but understands my frustrations in life and 
sees why it appeals to me though she is a very active Latter-day Saint church 
member.  My brother Mike is an agnostic/atheist but still thinks it is really a 
crazy idea!  Maybe because he likes to hang out with the ardent environmentalist
types!  Mike is really into computers and so are his main buds though.  I am 
very proud of him for recently getting hired by a firm which installs alarm 
systems for the commercial sector.  Mike may get to travel abroad to Russia in 
his new job like some of his coworkers have.    


My mother the other day(thinking like Robert Bradbury!!) said after seeing the 
Charlie Rose specials and listening to some biotech folks on Mike Siegal(used to
be Art Bell radio show) that cryonics might not be necessary because of the 
coming medical advances which will develop over the next several decades!!  Go 
Mom! 

you continue:

Doing anything to loose as few as possible, to as you say: "help" should be 
priority #1 for everyone I think.  The transition from a society full of death, 
and all the work required to achieve a society with no more death is going to be
a gut wrenching difficult process.  Many people are already lost and are not 
going to make it, at least in the near term (the most difficult part), and none 
of us will make it alone.
(end)


As important as defeating aging and disease are for indefinite lifespan, think 
of ALL the other problems which need fixing!!  Extreme poverty, untreated 
disease, malnutrition, babies dying of easily deaths in the third world, 
horribly inadequate shelter, lack of power and sanitation, lack of schools and 
teachers, etc., the list goes on and on.  


Still, I understand what you mean.  It is so frustrating to see all the people 
dying(and SO many before even their presently allotted lifespan!).  With all the
money wasted by governments I cringe to think what could be in a better world.
If human beings could put their monstrous military spending toward building up
the world and not martial power just think what we could do...


I realize military research and war have spurred human technological development
to a huge extent.  But if only we could only have had such development in times
of peace and trust...  And service in the military can be hugely beneficial to 
the young people who go in and (sometimes) are transformed for the better by it.


>Yes, it may make an impact on their lives five or ten >years from now, but you 
can't eat that, and you can't >use that to pay the rent.

you continue:

I think your completely wrong here.  Look at all the major world religions of 
today that control 90% of the people!  How much money do they give so they can 
build their "large and spacious" buildings of "worship"?  Can you eat a huge 
exotic expensive temple with expensive stained glass windows?  Do their supposed
God's ever "pay the rent"?  No!  
(end)


No doubt, there is a lot of squandering of the money given to religious 
organizations.  Still, much of the money is spent within the paradigm of the 
church as being responsibly spent(building churches, paying clergy salaries, 
supporting missionaries, aiding the poor, etc.)  


Perhaps God should have dollars rain down over the various church HQ's like 
manna from Heaven so believers aren't asked to donate money anymore? :)  

you continue:

All there is is some promise for which there is some miserable hope and 
absolutely no credible evidence that it is true, that if you starve, and go 
without paying rent, yet pay all your "tithing", get "baptized", sacrifice your 
life and die, you'll go to some unimaginable nether world heaven, separated from
those that remain here, and supposedly be happy sitting on a cloud playing a 
harp for eternity.
(end)


I wish there were more credible evidence myself.  I find the combination of 
near-death experiences and the feelings I get when reading the 
scriptures(especially New Testament) to be a testimony to me.  I know what you 
mean though, I want to be visited by Angels while I am holding a video camera...


Mormons who pay tithing are not going to starve and will at least for a time 
have their rent paid.  The church welfare system is amazing.  The emphasis is on
getting a person back on their own feet and not making them permanently 
dependant.  


The Mormon concept of Heaven is vaguely extropian in scope.  A husband and wife 
couple who have glorious resurrected bodies bursting with power and knowledge.  
They will continue to have offspring and create entire worlds for them to live 
on.  On these worlds their children will be tested to see if they will live 
right.  For those who do, celestial exaltation is the reward they receive, as 
their Heavenly parents before them.  Not quite like playing a harp all the time 
on a cloud... :)  

you continue:

What Jane blue-collar and Joe six-pack (and frankly, me too) need is some 
organization that tells us, or at least helps us know what it is we should be 
doing in order to be good and have a shot at achieving salvation and exaltation.
(end)

With Extropian definitions to be sure!!
  
you continue:

A completely volunteer organization that has a simple, easy to understand party 
line that can be indoctrinated into us when we are toddlers in Sunday School.  
Not some allegedly absolute infallible never changing dogma that no member has 
any influence on, but something dynamic that is always improving, improving 
because of our efforts if we are so inclined to get involved in and contribute 
to the improvement of the "party line" and make it better for everyone.  A party
line like: always chose life over death or happiness and joy over misery; never
give up; enough correct, rational, scientific... (including spiritual if you 
must) works can accomplishing anything; you don't die to get to haven and help 
your loved ones, you live and serve...
(end)


Brent, it sounds to me what you want is a combination of the Unitarian church, 
the Extropian Institute and the Immortalist Venturist Society.  


I am very surprised there is not a transhumanist Unitarian church out there yet 
with principles similar to what the Extropian Institute has.


I have attended the Unitarian church here in Anchorage.  They meet in a fairly 
big log cabin building in a residential neighborhood.  This church is dirt poor 
compared to the others in the community.  The pastor has a doctorate in history 
and a masters in divinity.  He has a very friendly and easygoing way about him.
The man is pastor, handyman, janitor and lives on the premises to save money.


What is strange is how you have a demographic of older, middle-aged couples and 
their very young(elementary age children).  Hardly anyone is between those two 
demographics!  They are very educated and still want the "family feel" of a 
church but without doctrines which they I suppose have trouble with.  


I found the "sunday school" to be on par with a college class on humanities!  
And god help the person who speaks out of turn.... lol! 

you continue:

Since Jane and Joe (we) sometimes initially don't have what it takes to be 
motivated to seek after and find which religion might truly have a much better 
chance at giving us exaltation than the one we're stuck because it is falsely 
promising us a similar thing, there must be an unconditional loving "missionary 
effort" to help us all. The primary goal is to bring "salvation and exaltation" 
to as many people as possible via any rational and reliable mechanism that might
help accomplish these goals.
(end)


Doesn't Alcor sort of try to do this by attempting to promote cryonics? lol  
Listen Brent, I have heard at the Alcor Life Extension Conference, Dr. Greg Fahy
stated much sooner than we think REVERSIBLE cryosuspension may be perfected.  
With this technology and an advertising budget we could do what you suggest.  In
fact, big business would basically "take over" and would do it for us I bet!  


Have you heard how Saul Kent and Will Falloon are funding the construction of 
the "timeship" as a place where cryonics research, suspensions and storage can 
all happen under one roof?  The building was designed by perhaps the greatest 
architect living right now!!  This magnificient structure will be a 
transhumanist/cryonicist temple for a new age.

you continue:

Once someone joins, or perhaps is "baptized" or something symbolic like this, 
they receive the 'right' to gain cryonic preservation, whether they can afford 
it or not, whether they are a "sinner" or not.  An all inclusive organization 
that has a goal of being all things to everyone, at least as much as is 
possible.  Of course, everyone is expected to volunteer to give up a bit of 
their "rent", free time, and such, to help be a missionary and so on and so 
forth, and contribute to the fund to help make cryonic preservation available to
all that want it whether they can afford it or not.
(end)


Brent, as soon as you have a couple hundred million to donate you should have 
what you need to get your church going!  Free cryonics policies to all new 
members would get EXPENSIVE fast if you really had the infrastructure to keep 
your word to them.

you continue:

Instead of building large and spacious buildings and meaningless worshiping busy
work and begging for some God to do everything for us, the goal is always to do
all and anything we can to contribute to any such effort, and to save as many 
loved ones as is possible in the fastest most rational, reliable, and hopeful 
way.
(end)


Sometimes people need magnificent buildings to worship in to bring them 
aesthetic pleasure and to be a symbol of what they believe in.  I do not 
consider cathedral, mosques and temples to be a waste of money in most cases.  


I think as the singularity nears and cryonics and emortality technology are 
perfected, than we will see many people view things as you do and say "we must 
reach out no matter the cost and save others!"  We are not there yet.  Brent, 
you may two or three decades ahead of your time.  

you continue:

One of the reasons the "religions" of the world are so successful is because 
they catch Joe and Jane (us) when we are young and they hit us with a large, 
nurturing, well organized, very supportive, active group, at least once a week, 
and hopefully everyday, 
(end)


I have had many friends who despite being indoctrinated from birth still left 
their religious organizations.  Usually over matters of perceived sexual freedom
or wanting to have more spare time.  

you continue:

(at least until they receive some intelligence/consciousness amplification which
get's them beyond such needs) over and over with the same old party line of 
what is really required to gain salvation and exaltation, and to create a true 
heaven absent of evils like separation, suffering, death....
(end)


Huh? Super indoctrinate them with transhumanist views and goals?  I would like 
to see the truly utopian world you and Eliezer dream of living in.  I just think
things like greed, ego, envy and mistrust will always put the serpent of 
conflict and suffering among us.  


Having been raised in my faith, I still tend to think "relying on the arm of the
flesh" is going to lead to eventual disaster.  There are so many warning of 
this in the Bible.  God just has to hang back and watch as we kill and torment 
each other even as we think a golden age is coming upon us through scientific 
progress and human enlightenment.  We will see...  And that is why I see 
cryonics and life-extension as so important, because I want to live to SEE.   

you continue:

All of us don't yet have the money, intelligence and so on that is required to 
truly be Extropian.  Yet we can't do it all without everyone and even true 
Extropians can't successfully do anything alone.
(end)


There are only a few who are truly Extropian.  And I very much agree that we 
need to work together because we all have something to offer.  

you continue:

So we all need everyone and some well organized and active "religion" to help us
all know what it is we are striving for and that constantly helps us to have 
the faith and hope that long before there is anything "all powerful", evils like
separation, suffering, death...  might be completely overcome for all that want
it and are willing to never give up until we get it.
(end)


I can see reasons for transhumanism and a unitarian type church coming together.
"Hey, you put your chocolate in my peanut butter!" :)  While transhumanism 
tends to reject the trappings of mainstream religion, the truth is that the 
sense of love, community, and shared focus a church can engender is truly 
priceless!  Brent could have a great idea here.  "Max More, ordained 
Extropian/Unitarian Minister!"  Oh boy!!, as if the poor man does not already 
have enough to do! 


I think a network of transhumanist/Unitarian churches really could vastly help 
strengthen the movement Max, Natasha, and others have worked so hard to advance.
It is a concept worth investigating and advancing.  What do the rest of you 
think?  I would like to know.


The resort/cryonics community David Pizer is putting together(and he will do it)
will be a shining example of getting something very concrete done.  When this 
project is finished it will be an ideal place for transhumanists and cryonicists
of all stripes to gather and rub shoulders to plan how to go about things.  And
while they do this the public will be there vacationing(sometimes along side 
us) and this will allow for sharing our message!  That David Pizer is pretty 
sneaky! :)  

you continue:

What do you think?  To date, most Extropians seem bent on fighting against 
organized religion?  Is this our biggest problem? Might we be more successful if
we instead learn from them and all they've succeeded at doing despite 
themselves?  Imagine what Joe and Jane could do given a real shot at real 
exaltation, something we, ourselves, can chose and eventually determine exactly 
what we want it to be.
(end)


There is a LOT to be learned from the success organized religion has in gaining 
and maintaining power.  I studied this in a fascinating "sociology of religion" 
class I took from a professor who at onetime had been a Roman Catholic priest.  
He was quite happy till he met a certain girl and his heart went a *flutter!*  
:)

you continue:

Once we've saved everyone possible, then we can go off and do fun things like 
terra-form Mars, create Dyson spheres, super brains... and anything else we 
might want to do with our immortal lives including maybe and hopefully 
eventually achieving enough omnipotence to be able to resurrect and pay back our
dead and gone ancestors that would have given anything to be a part of such a 
heaven, but instead settled with living to create and give us, their children, 
everything we now have.  All this for the selfish hope that we might no longer 
be alone without them and eternally in their debt for what they all successfully
gave to all of us.
(end)


Brent, you have the noblest of sentiments and goals.  I think the fortunate few 
on this planet who are in a position(with their born and yet unborn children) to
benefit from the present technological and social advances should try very hard
to find ways to save the unfortunate among us.  A child who died of dehydration
today in some third world nation might have been an "Aristoi" had he been born 
a century from now.  Even if not, every life lost is a horrible tragedy. 


I think the historians and layman readers of the future will see the 20th and 
much of the 21st century as a continuation of the "dark age" of humanity.  They 
will shudder in horror at disease, death and most of all cruelty and death we 
either committed or turned our gaze away from.


Brent, that is why your post is such a credit to you.  Perhaps you have planted 
a seed of thought which will over time germinate and yield great results.


your friend,

John Grigg


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