X-Message-Number: 14159 From: "Gurvinder Bagga" <> Subject: 'knower' and 'known' Date: Mon, 24 Jul 2000 22:19:11 IST Hi everyone, My post on the problem of the 'knower' and the 'known' has generated a lot of debate. A site which deals with this subject (although it might not be compatible with cryonics) is http://www.hinduism.org.za/three.htm A piece of the discussion is given below... Three States of Consciousness As taught by Sri Ramana Maharshi Edited by David Godman Question: For one who has realised his Self, it is said that he will not have the three states of wakefulness, dream and deep sleep. Is that a fact? Sri Ramana Maharshi: What makes you say that they do not have the three states? In saying "I had a dream; I was in deep sleep; I am awake", you must admit that you were there in all the three states. That makes it clear that you were there all the time. If you remain as you are now, you are in the wakeful state; this becomes hidden in the dream state; and the dream state disappears when you are in deep sleep. You were there then, you are there now, and you are there all the times. The three states come and go, but you are always there. It is like a cinema. The screen is always there but several types of pictures appear on the screen and then disappear. Nothing sticks to the screen. Similarly, you remain your own Self in all the three states. If you know that, the three states will not trouble you, just as the pictures that appear on the screen do not stick to it. On the screen, you sometimes see a huge ocean with endless waves; that disappears. Another time, you see fire spreading all around; that too disappears. The screen is there on both occasions. Did the screen get wet with the water or did it get burned by the fire? Nothing affected the screen. In the same way, the things that happen during the wakeful, dream and sleep states do not affect you at all; you remain your own Self. Question: Does that mean that, although people have all three states of consciousness - wakefulness, dream and deep sleep - these do not affect them? Maharshi: Yes, that is it. All these states come and go. The Self is not bothered; it has only one state. Question: Does that mean that such a person will be in this world merely as a witness? Maharshi: That is so; for this very thing Vidyaranya, in the tenth chapter of the book Panchadasi, gives as example the light that is kept on the stage of a theatre. When a drama is being played, the light is there, which illuminates, without any distinction, all the actors, whether they be kings or servants or dancers, and also all the audience. That light will be there before the drama begins, during the performance and also after the performance is over. Similarly, the light within, that is, the Self, gives light to the ego, the intellect, the memory and the mind without itself being subject to processes of growth and decay. Although during deep sleep and other states there is no feeling of the ego, that Self remains attributeless, and continues to shine of itself. Actually the idea of the Self being the witness is only in the mind; it is not the absolute truth of the Self. Witnessing is relative to objects witnessed. Both the witness and his object are mental creations. Question: How are the three states of consciousness inferior in degree of reality to the fourth (Turiya)? What is the actual relation between these three states and the fourth? Maharshi: There is only one state, that of consciousness or awareness or existence. The three states of waking, dream and deep sleep cannot be real. They simply come and go. The real will always exist. The "I" or existence that alone persists in all the three states is real. The other three are not real and so it is not possible to say they have such and such degree of reality. We may roughly put it like this, Existence or consciousness is the only reality. Consciousness plus waking, we call waking. Consciousness plus sleep, we call sleep. Consciousness plus dream, we call dream. Consciousness is the screen, on which all the pictures come and go. The screen is real, the pictures are mere shadows on it. Because by long habit, we have been regarding these three states as real, we call the state of mere awareness or consciousness the fourth. There is however, no fourth state, but only one state. There is no difference between dream and the waking state except that the dream is short and the waking long. Both are the result of the mind. Because the waking state is long, we imagine that it is our real state. But, as a matter of fact, our real state is Turiya or the fourth state which is always as it is and knows nothing of the three states of waking, dream or deep sleep. Because we call these three Avastha (states) we call the fourth state also Turiya Avastha. But it is not an Avastha, but the real and natural state of the Self. When this is realised, we know it is not a Turiya or fourth state, for a fourth state is only relative, but Turiyatita, the transcendent state. Question: But why should these three states come and go on the real state or the screen of the Self? Maharshi: Who puts this question? Does the Self say these states come and go? It is the seer who says these come and go. The seer and the seen together constitute the mind. See if there is such a thing as the mind. Then, the mind merges in the Self, and there is neither the seer nor the seen. So the real answer to your question is, 'They neither come nor go.' The Self alone remains as it ever is. The three states owe their existence to non-enquiry and enquiry puts an end to them. However much one may explain, the fact will not become clear till one attains Self-realisation and wonders how one was blind to the self-evident and only existence so long. For the Jnani (who is self-realised), all the three states of consciousness are equally unreal. But the ajnani (ignorant or who is not self-realised), is unable to comprehend this, because for him the standard of reality is the waking state..... Bye! Gurvinder ________________________________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com Rate This Message: http://www.cryonet.org/cgi-bin/rate.cgi?msg=14159