X-Message-Number: 14260
Date: Sun, 06 Aug 2000 23:36:14 -0400
From: Paul Wakfer <>
Subject: Re: 14252, 14229 - Where is a current summary?
References: <>

> Message #14252
> Date: Sat, 5 Aug 2000 17:25:44 -0700 (PDT)
> From: Scott Badger <>
> Subject: Re: #14229 - Where is a current summary? [Paul Wakfer]
> With the utmost respect, Sir ...
> I thank you profusely for your efforts in cryonics.
> I'm happy to hear that your life is bringing you so
> much satisfaction these days. Your chastisments
> regarding what you view as masturbatory online
> discussions seem harsh to me but I sense that
> harshness is more related to your frustrations with
> the lack of funding and slow progress on the research
> front.

No. It is that *I* am a person who is *intensely* interested in
fundamental and foundation ideas in philosophy, mathematics and physics,
but *I* know that I do not have time in my remaining normal life to do
the necessary deep reading, thinking and formulating to do them justice,
and I do not wish to flood the world with half-baked, pseudo-logical
Having made the decision that my best interest is to be sought by
putting all my efforts toward obtaining an unbounded lifespan so that I
eventually *will* have sufficient time to do those things which excite
me the most intellectually, I get somewhat annoyed when others who 
could help me achieve my goals (and theirs also, if they can be
believed) busy themselves at such arcane and
impractical-to-the-here-and-now pursuits.
I hasten to add that this criticism or annoyance is not so much directed
at those who are already fully involved in life-extension of one form or
another (such as Fred Chamberlain, for example), who take a little time
off to enjoy the intellectual fun and games.
So yes, in another sense you are right. It is annoyance that while for
ten years, I have been busting my ass for life-extension in one form or
another, even though this will benefit many other people, *they* do not
respond in kind. 
And before everyone says "but I have no talents which can be employed in
that direction!", I will state that *everyone* has some talent that can
help. Even if that talent is only to shave 10% off their daily life
costs so that money can be donated (with a multiplying tax benefit) to
finance others who *do* have the direct talents needed. 
> It's my view that Cryonet is and should be a community.

That is a wonderful and very idealistic view. It has been my view every
time that I have gotten strongly involved with a group of people with
whom I had major common goals (or so I thought). However, every time
this has proven wrong and enormous rivalry and infighting occurred
because of the major personality and fundamental sense-of-life
differences between the strong, radical people involved. This happened
first with objectivists, next with libertarians, and now with
cryonicists. It did not happen with in a university community, with
computer people, and so far it has not happened with the larger group of
life extensionists outside of cryonics. Personally, I think this is
directly related to the size and "fringeness" of the groups involved.
For example, today that the
libertarians are much bigger than in the 70s, it might not happen there.
Therefore, in my view, while it is correct to hope the cryonics and
Cryonet will eventually be a (peaceful) community, it is not surprising
that it is not and it is wrong to expect or require it to be at this
early time in its existence.

> It would be less so if all we ever talked
> about were highly rational and pragmatic topics. I've
> found the identity discussions and others in the same
> ilk to be helpful. I thank all those who've helped to
> stretch and clarify my mind.

But they are not helping us get from here to there. They are not helping
us save our lives and those of others. Furthermore, most of the
questions involved are of the type which will be seen and understood
clearly when the appropriate time for their solution arrives. If one has
confidence about reality and esteem for oneself, one does not need to
have all the answers for everything to hand! One is content to proceed
forth into the future, with open mind and with full confidence that at
the time when it is needed, conditions will conspire to allow one's mind
to produce a solution to the problem.

> You rightly claim, I believe, that people prefer to
> build personal wealth by investing their disposable
> assets over giving that money to a charity.

If *that* were the choice, then I would be the first to agree with it!
However, is primary research whose results will directly be effective in
prolonging their lives really a *charity*????

> Why is it
> that no one attempts to fund cryonics research efforts
> through common stock offerings?

This is a totally reasonable question. That is what I attempted to do
with the Prometheus Project, but everyone got after me because I did not
make it into an official prospectus.
They made absolutely no allowance for the facts that:
1) After previous "donations" to various aspects of life-extension, I
had no money left for such an undertaking.
2) I had done all the work to make a full business plan for CryoSpan and
it netted me *zero* investment.
3) There was no logical need for a prospectus until money would actually
be requested and received.
4) There was as yet no complete scientific plan on which to base a
business plan and thus a prospectus.
5) No one was helping me do any of this.

To get back to your question, I believe that BioTransport (which now
seems to be going nowhere, at least on the topic of cryonic suspension -
perhaps because of the conflict of interest with Alcor due to Fred
Chamberlain being CEO of both organizations) did offer share purchases
to others. Why 21CM has never opened it shares for purchase (except by
Saul Kent and Bill Faloon), I do not know. Saul has several times stated
that a prospectus and a chance to invest will soon be forthcoming, but
it never has appeared. Hell, I, for one, would like to know what my
founding shares are worth!!

> I think there's plenty of money among cryonicists,
> but obviously they need a more attractive offer.

Scott, I think you are somewhat myopic here, or you have just not been
around long enough. Most cryonicists are not going to invest in any
cryonics related company unless they are just as certain that it will be
profitable as any other company on the stock market! I believe that has
been proven several times already. And *that* more than anything else
shows how wrong you are to regard cryonicists as forming a true
This is the very sad reality of the current situation. 

Thanks very much for your input, Scott.
I have read your posts and while I have not responded, I have generally
appreciated seeing a voice of reason attempting to go in the right

-- Paul --

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