X-Message-Number: 14796 Date: Sun, 29 Oct 2000 19:53:32 -0500 From: david pizer <> Subject: Alcor's obligations: a reply @kirschner-seminare.de> >Subject: How I lost my membership at Alcor >Date: Fri, 27 Oct 2000 00:27:02 +0200 >Dear list members, >My name is Thomas Kirschner, I am a 43 year old German. I live in Augsburg, >Bavaria. I have had a contract with Alcor about cryopreservation since 1995 >until February of this year. Following is a correspondence, that developed >through the last weeks, starting at the day, where I wrote to Alcor, because >its journal had stopped being delivered. I have copied below all the >letters, that have been exchanged. I would like to see your comments. >Regards, >Thomas Kirschner As per your request above, I will try to help explain this. The following opinions are my own, they in no way represent Alcor. I am retired from the Alcor Board and retired as Alcor's Vice President after many years. At present I am not affiliated with Alcor in any way, except that I am a suspension member, and so is my wife. I have not discussed this with anyone else. Here is the reply that you requested. First, I would like to say that Alcor's number obligation is to its patients. So if there is a conflict between a living member and a patient, Alcor has to do things that will protect the patients because they are 100% dependent on Alcor. Lets keep this in mind as we go over some of the points you mention. >25th. September, my first letter to Brian Shock, whom I assumed to be still >in charge of the customer relations: >Dear Brian, >it came to my mind, that I have not received Alcor s journal in a long time >(maybe two years). What happened? Did I fall off the mailing list? >Yours, >Thomas Kirschner -------------------------------------------- >I received an answer from Joe Hovey, on Sept 28th: >Dear Mr. Kirschner: >In 1998 your mail started being returned to us as "Moved. No Forwarding >Address." We held your magazine accordingly. The last address we had for >you was Afragaesschen 5, Augsburg D-86150, Germany. >More seriously, the credit card you had us charge your quarterly dues to >stopped working on February, 1999. The last four digits of that credit card >were 0690. We tried to contact you both by mail and by e-mail, without >success. In February, 2000, your membership in Alcor was cancelled for non >payment of dues. >If you wish to reinstate your membership, you are going to have to reapply >from the very beginning. Contact Linda Chamberlain at for >details, or check our website at www.alocr.org. >Joe Hovey >Accounting Manager >------------------------------------------- >I wrote back, on Sept 29th: >Dear Mr. Hovey, >WHAT???!!! My membership has been cancelled???!!! Are you kidding? >I have NOT moved! I still live at the same address. I am still paying my >rates for the insurance, that has been signed-over to Alcor. How can Alcor >cancel my membership? I Also still hold my e-mail address, >, as far as I know. But you are right, my >credit-card number might have changed, due to a loss of my old card. >From your reply here, I must assume that your original credit card did change, there seems to be no mistake, and there seems to be no mistake that you knew it changes but forgot to notify Alcor. If that is true, that would be *your* mistake, not Alcor's. Alcor, in fairness to its patients and to the other members, cannot keep people on the suspension membership roles who do not pay their obligations on time. >But: I have been in contact with Alcor about the question of buy-back policy >about a year ago. There, my questions were answered in a very normal way, >nobody mentioned any problems with my current status. >What do you mean: I have to reapply from the beginning? From the VERY >beginning? Will I have to go to the notary again, and pay all those fees? >You must be kidding, please! >Sincerely, >Thomas Kirschner It seems that Alcor is in the process of updating its files. This is something that has been long overdue. Recently I had to do a lot of extra work to bring one of my insurance policies into compliance with ways that are best for Alcor to be confident that they will get paid if they do a suspension. Lets look more at that where it is mentioned below. But a note here, it is not that hard to do the work that is necessary, it seems it might have been less work than all the letters you composed??? ------------------------------------------------------------- >I wrote another letter to Linda Chamberlain, 30. Sept.: >Dear Linda, >the correspondence below shows my current problem with membership at Alcor. >Until yesterday, I considered myself a member, and Mr. Hovey s letter came >totally out of the blue to me. I still want to stay signed up again, and I >think it is not asking too much to hope for a quick, informal procedure, >since at least a great deal of the problem was *not* caused by myself: I >still live at the same adress, and I have no explanation, why Alcor s >letters to me should bounce back. I also have ho explanation about the >problem with my e-mail. You say the problem "... was *not* caused by" yourself, but you changed your credit card number when you lost your old card, and you did not contact Alcor. You also did not contact Alcor for a whole year that your magazine quit coming. That seems like the problem *was* caused by you. If you do not know why your mail and E-mail are bouncing back, it seems that Alcor would be in even less of a position to know that, so I don't understand how you can fault Alcor??? >And regarding the changed credit-card information: >It is really hard to keep track of all the people, I have to notify in a >case of change. Usually, regarding credit cards, people who need to charge >money on my card, get back to me, if they find the card changed, or the >company - which is also still the same - notifys them or me about the >problem and how to solve it. So, I really don t know, why this whole thing >screwed up, but I myself played only a minor role in it, as far as I am able >to tell. I don't think changing your credit card number and then not notifying Alcor is a "minor role." It is a *major* role. It is the sole reason why your dues were no longer collectable by Alcor. You quit paying dues and an organization drops you. There is no mystery here. >Please consider my case and find the best possible solution! >Yours, sincerely, >Thomas Kirschner >---------------------------------------------------------------------------- >------------ >3rd October: I received an answer from Jennifer Chapman: >Hi: >I'm Jennifer, Alcor's new Membership Administrator. I have been forwarded >copies of your recent email inquiries and am glad to address your concerns. >Regardless of why your letters were returned to us, the fact remains that >your dues were not being paid, and we had no way of communicating with you >in order to resolve the situation. Your membership was cancelled for >non-payment of dues. In order for you to reinstate your membership you will >need to have funding that conforms with our current requirements. I do not see how you can fault Alcor. You changed your credit card number. Alcor was no longer able to collect the dues on the old card. You did not contact Alcor. Alcor was unable to contact you because the regular mail and e-mail kept bouncing back. >Our records show that there was some concern about whether or not your >German insurance policy would actually pay to Alcor in the event of your >death. Our file does not show any resolution of this problem other than >your personal translation of the insurance policy and your personal >assurance that it would not be a problem. This lack of visibility and >control of funding will not be acceptable >under our current funding requirements. If insurance is used for funding, >we currently only accept American insurance policies. This is a new problem. Since Alcor is in the process of rechecking ALL the insurance policies on every member, this would have come up anyhow. This seems to be the root of the problem now. You have some kind of insurance that Alcor can not verify will pay if you die and they suspend you. After you are in the dewar, you will not be able to argue with your insurance company. How can you expect Alcor to cover you if they are not confident that they will get paid? If Alcor tells you that the company you have insurance with is one that they can not be sure they will get paid if they suspend you, then you have to get insurance with a company that Alcor has confidence in. It is to the benefit of the existing patients that Alcor be very careful and make sure that they will get paid for their services. If Alcor gets sloppy in their verification process and suspends a patient and does not collect, then everyone else ends up paying for this, or Alcor does not get paid at all. If this happens a lot, then Alcor goes out of business and the patients are the ones that suffer. >Our current membership fees are reflected in the attached Schedule A. I >have also attached information about the limitations on our ability to >serve members who are living or traveling outside the United States and the >resultant funding requirements for new foreign memberships. If you would >like to apply for a new membership, please let me know. I will be happy to >send you a new application. >---------------------------------------------------------------------------- >My answer, Oct. 14th: >Dear Jennifer, >excuse me for the delay in my comunication - I had been away from home, >teaching seminars. But now, I would like to see, what I can do to clean up >the situation. At this point I can see what you need to do. Fill out the new forms, and get insurance with a company that Alcor is sure will pay them. Its is not any more complicated than that. >Your last letter showed, that the damage is obviously bigger, than I had >assumed after Joe's writings; also, there were vital questions - at least >for me- that you only touched briefly, but for which I need a more solid >clarification. >First: I understand, that Alcor is not planing to offer me any easy and >unbureaucratic way to reinstall my membership. Is that right? Why not? What you are calling an "easy" way is a way that is not safe for Alcor's patients and other living members. All the rest of us have to fill out the correct forms and we all have to provide funding that Alcor is rock-solid sure will pay off. When Alcor does a suspension, they have to spend tens of thousands of dollars. If it is overseas where you are it can be much more than a domestic suspension. >The overall tone of all three letters that I received from you and Joe seems >to say that it is all my fault. It is your fault. You changed the numbers on your credit card and did not notify them. You also appear to be having some other trouble with your regular mail and your e-mail. Perhaps your e-mail was canceled because you were paying them with the old credit card also. Did you check that? >However, as I had already pointed out in my >last writing, this is not quite the fact! At least a sign of some empathy >for what happened to me and some words, that you agree, that it was a chain >of unlucky events would have gone a long way. Please keep in mind: I did >*NOT* change my postal address; since I have my own company, that organizes >international seminars, I am very frequently being contacted by people from >all parts of the world. Why among all these postal exchanges only Alcor did >not manage to reach me, repeatedly, still needs to be explained. (Btw: at >the same time, I am asking myself, why nobody ever bothered to call me up >and talk to me? Every phone operator would have easily been able to trace my >number, since I still live at the same address. Obviously, noone at Alcor >ever tried.) >Neither did I stop the funding of my insurance. Again, you need to accept the responsibility on this part. You changed your credit card number and did not notify Alcor. That is the same as stopping your payment of dues. > Also, my >correspondence, about a year ago, with someone from your staff, about >buy-back-regulations could have been proof enough that I am still existing >and a good chance to check with me about address, payment and uncertainties >in my payment plan. It was an exchange of at least four mails; two on each >side. Are you sure, that there have not been significant mistakes also on >Alcor's side?) I also did not change my credit-card company. I am pretty >sure, that for a company like Eurocard, it is quite a normal instance, that >some party experiences difficulties in charging their client's account, due >to a card change, and that they have a routine of notifying the other party >in such a case and getting the issue straightened out. I don't think so. >Second: You are now implying, that upon a new registration I will need a new >insurance, since there had been "some concern about whether or not your >German insurance policy would actually pay". I have to tell you, that I find >this latest turn in our communication the most annoying part. Here are the >reasons: >* I have *never* been informed by Alcor about *any* uncertainty about my >insurance. They have just realized that. It doesn't matter when they found out that your old insurance company cannot guarantee they will pay Alcor on your death. It would seem as a responsible person that you would want to use a company that you were certain would pay Alcor. Your letters seem to say that you want Alcor to be responsible for you but you are not willing to do things to make sure Alcor gets paid. > Since we are talking about a life-or-death matter, I must say, >that this fact alone greatly shatters my trust in the credibility of your >institution. Just the opposite. Alcor's request on your providing proper insurance should be an indication that if you are a helpless patient in Alcor's care, they are doing all they can to be sure that future transactions are handled in a businesslike manner. > How can such an issue stay unresolved, without being brought to >my attention? Again, I think you were just reading your own letters and not carefully reading what they were telling you. The answer to your question was answered several times by them according the the correspondence you providing above. They were unable to bring it to your attention because the mail and e-mail they sent you at the addresses you had provided kept bouncing back. They have explained this several times above. > After reading Alcor's paper on foreign membership, I think I >can understand the complex difficulties that are involved, and I want to >express, that I do appreciate that Alcor is taking them seriously and trying >to find measures to deal with them, in principle. >* If I now have to fund another - US-based - insurance, the question needs >to be resolved, how I can switch from one insurance company to another, >without cancelling my first contract before time, and thereby loosing a lot >of money. Again, there has been no word from your side, showing any kind of >empathy or help for this problem. The empathy Alcor is showing is for their patients. They are forcing strict rules on themselves in their business management to protect the financial condition of the company which protects the patients. >* So far, my old insurance is still signed over to Alcor. At least the >buy-back routine and how to practically apply it now should have been >addressed in your last writing - if this is really the only way, you offer. If they told you it was, then it must be. >* As you probably are aware of, the current Dollar/Euro exchange-rate will >work strongly against my interests, if Alcor really forces me to find a new >insurer. If the company you have insurance with is not going to pay Alcor when they suspend you then the company *you* have selected is forcing this situation. > This means, I will have to accept much less favorable conditions >next time. I would also not be surprised, if you told me in the next >writing, that Alcor's rates have increased too, so that a new membership >will cost a substantial higher amount of money, adding to all the other >costs: a further visit at the notary, the raised insurance rate, the loss in >value from the cancellation of my old insurance and all the fees, that Alcor >will charge me for processing my new membership application, etc. >But from the sound of your letter(s), I am now getting used to the idea, >that this is Alcor`s most favoured solution for my case. >My initial reaction to this was a strong feeling of anger and of beeing >treated unfair. But now, after a little more time between, I want to try to >keep a balanced and constructive view as much as possible. I will try to sum >up my position and come up with a proposal, how to continue: >The whole thing is in my eyes a summation of smaller omissions on both >sides: I, for my part, did overlook to inform Alcor about the change of my >creditcard number, eventually my e-mail, too; and I did not take it as a >sign of alarm, when Alcor's magazine stopped to be delivered to me. Sir, these are not "small ommissions;" that is the problem, you don't seem to realize this. You quit paying dues, your mail was undeliverable and you did not notify Alcor. It is time you accepted the responsibility of your actions. >On Alcor's side, there is the mistake of not informing me about the >unresolved uncertainties about my insurance, and also the failure, not to >take my correspondence a year ago as an opportunity to check my data in your >database and find, that there is a problem. Sir, you have overlooked the fact that Alcor had NO WAY of notifying you. The mail they sent you came back. > Then, on a more general level, >it has been my failure not to stay in closer contact with Alcor. I imagine, >that eventually - by carefully reading all your policy updates - I could >have become aware ahead of times of the strictness, that is being applied >from Alcor's side towards cases with payment or address problems. On Alcor's >side, I see the failure of not hard enough trying to contact its >"disappeared" members, and in applying the rules of membership cancellation >in a premature way, as well as being too rigid in dealing with cases like >mine, where it is all but clear, that the failure is only on the client's >side. >Having read Alcors s paper on the difficulties with foreign membership, I >can understand, that German customers with German insurances pose bigger >problems and uncertainties on Alcor, than a not-so-big institute can take. >And even if it wouldn t be for those problems, the far distance between >Amerika and Germany is maybe a psychological factor, that shouldn t be >neglected. Maybe I would be better off with the Alcor UK people. In fact, I >would be willing to try. But I want you to get some help from your side. I >feel it would unfair, if I would have to undergo the whole trouble and take >the whole costs one more time. Please keep in mind my arguments above: I >think that Alcor has its share in the responsibility about what happened >with my case and I would like to see some kind of acknowledgement of that >fact. I do not think Alcor can acknowledge any wrong doing. They tried to notify you and were unable to. You quit paying dues and you did not get your magazine for a whole year and still did not notify them! > As a minimum request, I would want Alcor UK to take over my insurance; >in exchange, I would be willing to see, that any uncertainties regarding a >future payout from this insurance are straightened out. I am sure, this is >possible. I would also ask for Alcor s obligingness, regarding the numerous >fees that will be due upon my new registration at Alcor UK. >Respectfully, >>Thomas Kirschner I cannot speak for Alcor, but as an impartial observer that you asked for input from, I would say that the fault seems to be all yours and that if you wanted to do the right thing, you would quit complaining and fill out the proper papers and get the correct insurance and get on with your life. > ------------------------------------------------------------------- >>I had to write another letter before I received an answer, on Oct. 16th: >Dear Jennifer, >I had written you a lengthy letter via mail, dated 14th of October. I >haven t heard from you since then. If you need more time, I would appreciate >a short notice, so that I know that at least my mail reached you and is >being processed. >Sincerely, >Thomas Kirschner >-------------------------------------------------------------------------- >I received the last letter from Alcor later the same day: >ar Thomas: >I must begin by offering you an apology. It does seem that >miscommunication has occured between Alcor and yourself. I would now like >to provide you with my cooperation in resolving the situation with fairness >and efficiency. >I am certain you understand that your membership was cancelled several >months ago for non-payment of dues and that Alcor did attempt to notify you >of this. As a comparison, imagine the electric company suddenly fails to >receive payment from you for their services. Of course, they will >eventually cease to provide you with such services...as did Alcor. >Although, I cannot reinstate your membership because of this, I do >sympathize with your circumstances and admit that Alcor should have >notified you sooner of the possible funding difficulties. Apparently, your >membership was not given enough consideration and this could have been >harmful to both yourself and Alcor. >However, now that you are no longer a member and Alcor is taking >responsibility for the prevalent funding risks involved with foreign >memberships, our current requirements must be met...for your protection and >ours. Providing adequate funding will likely be difficult for you and I >will bear this in mind when considering any additional requirements which >typically apply to new applicants. >For now, the most beneficial effort you can make will be to secure funding >for our services. This means you will be required to either obtain an >American insurance policy or provide pre-payment. These are currently the >only two options that Alcor can accept with confidence. However, I will >mention that we are very close to accepting insurance funding from Scottish >Amicable Life European in the United Kingdom. If the meet our >requirements, you will be eligible to apply with them. >Until then, you may want to inquire about your eligibility with the >following American insurance companies (refer to this letter from me): >New York Life 1-800-645-3338 Mary Naples () >Investment Services 1-800-749-3773 Rudi Hoffman () >Alcor U.K. representative 0115-928-1019 Graham Hipkiss >() >Best of luck to you, >Jennifer This is a very informative letter. It clearly and distinctly tells you what you need to do. I am sure that you want Alcor to remain a strong organization and to take steps to be sure that they get paid for each and every suspension they do. I am sorry that my letter does not offer you sympathy, but from the information you have supplied it is my opinion that the problems are yours. There are not many companies that offer what Alcor does. You have the responsibilty to do certain things in return for their services. I hope this answers the questions that you asked to be answered. If I can be of any further help to you, please do not hesitate to reply. Dave Pizer >---------------------------------------------------------------------- Rate This Message: http://www.cryonet.org/cgi-bin/rate.cgi?msg=14796