X-Message-Number: 14816
Date: Tue, 31 Oct 2000 20:42:58 -0500
From: david pizer <>
Subject: Re: CryoNet #14800 - #14808

>From: "Thomas Kirschner" <>
>Subject: How I lost my membership at Alcor, Reply to David Pizer
>Date: Mon, 30 Oct 2000 20:36:17 +0100

>Dear David,
>I thank you for the time and effort you put into commenting my "case".


Mr. Kirschner:

You are certainly welcome.

I might offer you a few suggestions.  Since you have brought up the point
that life insurance with a new company might cost more, have you thought of
asking Alcor what type of guarantee they might accept (if any) from the
company you now have insurance with. For instance, when I signed up there
was question whether the company I was with (or back in those days if ANY
company) would pay Alcor, for the purpose of a cryonic suspension.  The
concept that was in doubt at that time was one called "insurable interest."
 (Please note, I have no idea why Alcor is doubting your policy,  it may be
for other reasons).  I got the president of my insurance company (which is
a BIG company) to write a letter that they knew what Alcor and my relations
were to each other and them guaranteeing that they would pay Alcor on my
legal death, over his signature.  It was not hard to get, all I did was
write him a letter asking for it.  You might ask Alcor if this is the problem?

In the case that there is some other problem and it can not be resolved,
then you need to compute what the higher insurance premiums might be (they
might not be higher - see below) and see if it is worth it to you.  That
seems a question only you can make and don't need anyone on this forum to
help you with.   Don't forget that when you get the new policy, then you
can cancel the original policy and the cash value will be returned to you.
That payment you will get now in today's dollars might be more overall
value than the difference in long term payments you make to the new
company, and you might even come out ahead???

I did almost that same thing and I came out way ahead, it happened like
this:  There is also an exchange that insurance companies do.  For
instance, I had insurance with one company for about 10 years and had built
up some cash value.  I then transfered or exchanged that cash value to a
new company and with the value of that cash transfer, MY PAYMENTS TO THE
NEW COMPANY WERE LESS THAN THE OLD ONES, even though I was 10 years older.

>>I cannot speak for Alcor, but as an impartial observer that you asked for
>input from, I would say that the fault seems to be all yours and that if
>you wanted to do the right thing, you would quit complaining and fill out
>the proper papers and get the correct insurance and get on with your life.>>

>Be sure that I know how to appreciate and value properly these caring words
>from a former Alcor rep.
>Thomas Kirschner

Mr. Kirschner, I am sure that you had no way of knowing that I am *very*
distant from present Alcor management in my views. I am a former Alcor rep,
but  I am probably one of the last persons the present management would
have guessed would defend Alcor so vigorously.  You may not be able to
understand this - but my words are "Caring."  They are caring for the
helpless patients at Alcor that the present management has a duty and
obligation to protect, and the best way is to have sound financial policies.

 But from all that you have said, I still, honestly, think you were wrong.
 And, *you* did *ask* for an opinion in this forum.  And, I still think
that complaining in this forum at this time is not the most productive way
you could be trying to solve the problem.  Might I suggest that you go back
to direct discussion with Alcor and/or Cryonics Institute.

>Message #14805
>Subject: Shocking!!!
>Date: Tue, 31 Oct 2000 12:35:05 +1000

>This whole business has been dealt with in a shocking and shoddy manner.
>What happened to etiquette and just generally being polite.

Are you referring to how Mr. Kirschner handled his complaint or me?  If its
me, then I don't think you realize Mr. Kirschner asked me (and everyone, or
anyone) for an opinion.  In my opinion, he was very wrong.   Where's the beef?

> I guess every
>American is perfect and does everything exactly to formula. When I see
>things like this, it is no surprise to me that the idea of Cryonics has not
>taken off. Writing letters that treat a person (and member) like a child or
>imbecile is not diplomatic! and I am not just referring to David Pizar


>As for David Pizar, I do not think a person who "retired from the Alcor
>Board and retired as Alcor's Vice President after many years" and who is "a
>suspension member, and so is my wife"  is exactly what I would call "an
>impartial observer". It is my impartial observation that you owe this man a
>public apology - you must have made one great vice president with such

1.	It's Pizer not Pizar.

2.	I had my moments.

3.	The gentleman asked for an opinion, and I thought he was way wrong and
answered his request - as he asked.  I did not try to make him appear an
imbecile.  If it came off that way, I apologize.

4.	I made it very clear that I in no way represent Alcor but am just
another cryonicist now.  You may have no way of knowing, but I assure you
that I hold many opposing opinions to present Alcor management.  But one
thing I do not oppose is their steadfast dedication to the protection of
Alcor and the patients and working for sound financial policies in the area
of getting paid when they do a suspension.  The present management has
worked hard to clear up old problems with funding (some from the very
beginning of Alcor) in many members.  You and Mr. Kirschner probably don't
realize that there were some long term problems and that this big job was
undertaken by present Alcor management to help Alcor insure that they will
get paid for any and all suspensions they do.  This is for the protection
of Alcor patients and all Alcor members.

5.	Mr. Kirschner did not seem to realize Alcor's dedication to their
patients always comes first, no matter who the management has been.  He,
and you, (and probably most people) do not have any idea of how hard it is
to run a cryonics company.  I and a handfull of other people do realize
this.  So even though I am no longer associated in any way with running
Alcor, I thought because of my past experience, I could help him with his
request.  I hope he now has a better understanding, and I hope he works
hard to meet their requirements, because I like to see as many people as
possible try to protect their lives. 

>Thomas, I recommend that you wait a while and see what happens with all
>this and if Alcor do not resolve the matter to your satisfaction give
>serious consideration to the other suspension providers that is what a free
>market is all about. It is only a matter of time before a non US based
>suspension provider starts up, providing a more internationally focused
>service. In the mean time, we have to make do with whats available.

>Chris Benatar

When I was affiliated with Alcor's management we had people from other
countries come for visits to see how Alcor operated, from time to time.
There were some brothers from Germany who wanted to start a company there,
perhaps he could get their names and addresses from Alcor (if they still
have them) and work with them?  At that time, Alcor tried to help people in
other countries start their own companies because we (at least, I did) felt
it would be hard to do a good suspension if a member died far away in
another country.

It is very hard to start a cryonics company.  There have been many come and
go.  At present there are only two that in my opinion are fully operating
on their own: Alcor and the Cryonics Institute.

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