X-Message-Number: 14845
Date: Sat, 04 Nov 2000 19:51:46 +0100
From: Henri Kluytmans <>
Subject: Re: CryoNet #14832 - #14838

David Pizer wrote :

>I might add this suggestion as to why the "memory-only-holders" are having
>so hard a time seeing this selfhood concept clearly.  Most of the
>"memory-only-holders" are mathematicians and they understand the universe
>and people through mathematical principles.
>But mathematics is not a good way to have direct knowledge about the
>universe and conscious beings in it.  

I always thought that there is no way to have direct knowledge 
about the universe, there are only indirect ways !!

Please, tell me how you can have direct knowledge ?

>Mathematics may or may not be a good
>way for people to have indirect knowledge and to determine *relations*
>between objects and how these relations *appear* to them (the perceivers),

That mathematics is a good way to gather (indirect) knowledge about the 
world has been proven by the tremendous success of the scientific approach 
during the last couple of centuries.

The whole idea of the scientific approach is trying to make a symbolic 
model of a physical thing and using experiments and empirical data to 
see if the model does predict the reality.

So far as we know there is *NO BETTER WAY* to gather (indirect) knowledge 
about our world. Our whole current detailed understanding of the world 
and our technological civilisation is based on the scientific method.

>I believe trying to understand consciousness in
>mathematical terms is what is giving the mathematicians their incorrect
>understanding.  If we want to really understand living consciousness and
>individualism we are going to have to do it in another way besides in
>non-living mathematics.

Hmm, what better way than the scientific approach do you suggest then ?


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