X-Message-Number: 14863
Date: Mon, 6 Nov 2000 19:32:26 -0800 (PST)
From: "D. den Otter" <>
Subject: Re: Cryonics & Europe (various)

CryoNet - Mon 6 Nov 2000
Message #14850
Date: Sun, 5 Nov 2000 12:36:32 EST
Subject: sideline businesses

>>First, I still think that, on a near-to-intermediate
term outlook, it 
would be foolhardy for Europeans to rely on a new
European organization. It 
makes much more sense for individuals there to join an
existing organization, and then, if they wish, also
pursue the goal of European full service, either
through a new and separate organization or through a
European branch of an existing organization.<<

That's exactly what many of us have been doing.
However, now that Alcor is  pulling out of Europe, it
seems like a good time to start something of our own.
Right now, Europeans still appear to be welcome at CI,
and I certainly appreciate that, but what guarantee do
we have that we won't be kicked out again in a couple
of years? And then what? Besides, I strongly suspect
that having our own organization, if only a membership
organization that has sub-contracts with CI,
BioTransport or whatever, would significantly increase
the interest in cryonics over here. Interest is
clearly growing, but when people ask how/where they
can sign up they're put off by the pricing and legal

A European membership organization could streamline
the sign-up process, hold sign-up parties,
systematically promote cryonics etc., and in time also
include (low budget) freezing services, while -at
least initially- contracting out the more elaborate
procedures to other organizations. Some of the
low-cost suspensions could be charity cases (i.e. free
or minimal fee) for those who really want a
suspension, but can't afford it (preferably family
members of those already signed up for a "normal"
suspension). That would not only be the right thing to
do, but also good PR for cryonics as a whole. This
would put some added financial burdens on the
organization, of course, which brings us to...

>>If an individual, or a consortium, wants to start a
business and 
allocate part of the profit to a cryonics
organization, that's fine. But nothing 
new is involved; this has always been possible, and to
some extent has 
always been done.<<

But afaik not in an organized, large scale fashion.
Cryonics has sometimes been accused of being a "cult",
but the sad truth is that we're anything *but* a cult.
A real "cult" would have mobilized its members, and
aggressively gone into MLM etc. a long time ago. It
would be rich like Scientology, *without* necessarily
having to use their deplorable tactics, mind you.
That's the beauty of MLM; if done well (see also
below), it can not only help to fund the organization,
but also improve the situation of everyone involved.

>>As for Mr. den Otter's statement that existing
sources of revenue are 
inadequate, I suggest he review Cryonics Institute's
statements over the years. We are not only holding our
own, but gaining.<<

Ok, but there's not much room for error, and you can't
do (regular) charity suspensions. More importantly,
what we (in Europe) lack in talent, skills, manpower,
potential membership etc., we must compensate with
money. Things are so incredibly much easier if you
have plenty o' cash to back you up. No more endless
stress and self-sacrifice for the cause, just smooth,
fast action. Wouldn't it be incredibly, um, *cool* if
cryonics were more like its movie image: big,
high-tech, buildings, lots of people in white coats,
fully computerized freezers, tasteful underground
crypts etc.? Success attracts the successful, and with
the right kind of image, the rich & famous would
probably be flocking to cryonics in no-time. 

>>None of this is intended to disparage or discourage
new initiatives. 
New ideas, or old ideas in new hands, certainly have
the possibility of 
gain. But newness for its own sake has no special
merit, and risks loss of money and effort.<< 

As true pioneers we spit in the face of danger, or
whatever. ;-)

>>We can't just say, "If it aint broke, don't fix it."
Something that 
isn't broken could still be improved, maybe greatly
improved. But I would 
strongly advise caution on the part of newcomers, and
a study of history.<< 

We are, at least partially, moving into uncharted
territory here; it's been a while since the Mizar
experiment, and things have rather improved in the
last couple of years. More importantly, circumstances
have *forced* us (including Alcor UK, the presumed
nucleus of the new organization) into this experiment,
so we might as well do it right. Help and advice from
(and/or cooperation with) *any* of the American
cryonics organizations is always welcome, though. 

Message #14851
From: "John de Rivaz" <>
References: <>
Subject: Re: Cryonics & Europe
Date: Sun, 5 Nov 2000 12:22:38 -0000

>> If you have a huge amount of money behind you 
professionals will be aware that they cannot extort
and get away with it. If your finances are weak, they
know they may be able to get away with it - you can't
afford to investigate irregularities.<<

Very true. Simply put, money = power, and you can
never have too much of *that*. 

>>Yet I am not happy with the other suggestion of
multi-level. The 
problem with it is even if successful, it can be

I'm fully aware of this, that's why, as the bigbooster
site suggests, one should join several of these
programs at once, use strict selection criteria (for
example, never join programs that get repeatedly
advertised by means of SPAM), and look out for signs
that the program is coming to an end. MLM is very much
like the stock market, and more or less the same basic
rules apply: don't risk more money than you can miss,
don't put all your eggs in once basket, and don't
expect it to last forever. Actually, a good MLM
program is more reliable (predictable) than the stock
market. So what if it has a life cycle, doesn't
everything? As long as you take that into account, you
can't really go wrong. Last but not least, once you've
made some money 
as a player, you can start your *own* program, that's
where the really big money is.

>>Once I was involved with something called Terra
Libra, got in near the start after reading their flyer
in Venturist Voice, and, yes, I started making money. 
But what happens - they change management and drop
early members sitting at the top of the pyramid
"getting money for nothing". Succeed and you get
thrown out for success. Fail -- well you just fail.
They also had a spin off called "Life Money Success"
which I later discovered was designed to fail after
the leaders sold it. It was taken over by some
enthusiasts who were determined to keep it going, but
it gradually withered and died.<< 

See above. There *are* people who make big $$ almost
every time, both as players and as organizers. We need
to learn their exact tricks. It may not be "easy as
pie", but it's well worth the effort IMO. Did you
ultimately lose money on those games, or did you still
manage to make a profit, btw?

>>Yes, Multi-level can make money in the short term,
but it does not have staying power that is appropriate
for an organisation which by its very nature has to be
stable for 50 or more decades. However the public
stock markets and technology investment in particular
could be used to make serious money over a period of

But if you use MLM programs to get you started and
then invest part of that money in technology stocks
etc., then surely you have the best of both worlds?
Not to mention the fact that the concept of MLM (as
opposed to specific programs, which indeed don't last
forever) will be around for a long time to come.

>>If you wanted to fund your new cryonics organisation
from a safe 
source, then I would guestimate that you'd need of the
order of $6M (drawing 
5%) to do so. Using the ten ten rule for technology
if you start with $600 you could get there in about 
40 years. (Add 
another zero to the input and reduce the number of

IMO this further illustrates that we need something
like MLM to bridge that gap, and/or increase the
input. Earning, say, a couple of thousand dollars in
MLM isn't all that unrealistic, and this money could
be (partially) used to invest in tech stocks or
whatever. But of course you could so *a lot* better
than that with a dedicated group effort...

Also, $6M might be somewhat on the high side; it could
probably be done with (much) less (though more is
obviously better). Other than that it's a sound idea,
of course.

>>Another way to stay in business is arranging the
growth generating 
parts in economically free countries that do not have
capital taxation.<< 

You mean something like the Bahamas?  Yes, good idea.

> At the very least, the LN2 storage should be a fully
> insulated and "closed" system, which is only opened
> for patient insertion/removal. This too could be
> almost fully automated etc., but these matters are
> somewhat beyond the scope of this post.

>>And also much easier said than done.<<

No one said it was going to be easy, but it isn't
exactly impossible either, and should be well within
local capabilities (and if you get the cash part
right, you can order a custom-build installation, of

> The bottom
> line is that Europeans have the *means* to create
> their own self-sufficient organization, but still
> a "triumph of the will".

>>An inappropriate phrase if ever the was one. The
film "Triumph of the 
Will" should have been more correctly called
"Subjugation of the Will" but 
then its backers would never have stood for that :-)<<

Hmm, I see. Well, maybe what they need is a "kick in
the ass", then. ;-)

>>What I don't think it is sensible to expect is for
any one individual 
to say to other individuals "give me your money and I
will set up an 

No, ideally this would be a real group effort.

>>Don't try and spend money promoting gift schemes.
Hoping you can raise money by persuading people giving
theirs to you is not going to work.<<

It works for *some* people, so why couldn't this
include cryonicists? Are we cursed or something (ok,
sometimes, I actually think we are)? Also, we don't
really have that much realistic alternatives, at least
not for the short- & medium term.

>>Cryonics is unique as far as I can see inasmuch as
it thrives on
technological progress. That fact could be used  by a
young person to 
make the money required for what Mr den Otter has
proposed. If the ten-ten
progress is not there, then it may well be that
technbological progress 
will never get to the stage where revivals are
possible anyway. But 
otherwise, a "20 something" European could read this
message, say nothing, invest his relatively small sum
of momey in a technology mutual fund OEIC or unit
trust and come back decades later with a fait

In a couple of decades cryonics might be almost a moot
point...We need something *now*.

>The US cryonics orgs are not
> the real problem

>>Of course not. They appeared without any
organisations on other 
contients as role models. Their very existance
provides support for anyone else starting up now.<<

True, though their existence is sometimes also used as
a convenient excuse for not starting anything over

> From: 
> Date: Sat, 4 Nov 2000 10:24:41 EST

> Dave Pizer suggests that Europe and Asia might be
able to support one 
> new cryonics organizations.
> I still think history suggests otherwise, for the
near term. The USA  
> indeed different from other countries, in varying
degree, in several 

>>An important factor may be that internal transport
is much easier than
internal transport inside Europe, ie between European

Aren't we supposed to have open borders on the
European mainland nowadays? Note that at least for the
time being, the only "serious" players are the UK,
Germany and Holland. Travel between the latter two is
very easy indeed, and any restrictions regarding
transport between Holland and the UK can be
researched, anticipated and incorporated into
emergency plans. Apart from this, each country should
have its own basic washout facility, or contracts with
funeral directors etc. to handle the first phase of a

> But it isn't a case of either-or. Why should
Eurpeans wait 
> day--a reliable European organization exists? In
fact, if Europeans 
> others join CI, for example, they can still form a
> later, and probably much more easily with their CI
experience to draw
> Very little money would be "wasted," if any, and
time and lives might 
> saved.

>>This is what I have thought for years, and I
strongly agree. If he is 
not already in CI, Mr Den Otter could join CI using
the trust method (with 
term insurance if he feels he needs it) and then have
the funds available if
technology advances enough to make his funds of
suitable magnitude.<<

I'm currently with Alcor, but if they kick me (and
other Europeans) out, I'll probably join CI (assuming
that this will be possible) until -if ever- we'll have
something of our own. 

>>But if I ever get huge sums of money and decide I
could set up a 
cryonics facility with it, then it will be where I
live, not necessarily where 
other existing European cryonicists live. So would
anyone else do the same 
thing with money they had generated.<<

If it were up to me I'd place the actual facility in
the politically, geographically etc. most favorable
location, which probably wouldn't be near where I
live. No need for that, as long as you have some
washout/cooling gear and people who know how to use it
nearby. The ideal location for a cryonics facility
would be a disused bunker, btw. Good security, good
insulation, good ambiance, and often remarkably
affordable as well. You could put a house on top and
have someone permanently live there, though good
security measures (net-linked, motion-detecting video
surveillance, for example) could make this redundant.
The latter sounds more expensive than it actually is,
mind you; you could even use ordinary web cams for
this sort of thing.

Message #14852
From: "john grigg" <>
Subject: cryonics in Europe & Asia
Date: Mon, 06 Nov 2000 00:28:04 GMT

>>I have a question for the list members, especially
those who are 
well-travelled Americans or European citizens.  Which
European nation 
would be the most fertile ground to start a homegrown
cryonics organization?  I realize England already has
an Alcor outpost.  But what about the continent

Germany & the Netherlands, probably(?) in that order.

>>Would France be a good place(supposedly they have a
lust for the good 
life which could be continued with cryonics)?<<  

No, they have some strange burial laws that make
cryonics practically impossible, afaik, and there
generally doesn't seem to be much interest anyway.

>>Switzerland(an obsession with fiscal and physical
safety and security)?<<

Maybe...A bit hard to reach though from the rest of

>>Or how about an eastern european nation like Poland
or Romania where costs would be cheaper?<<

Probably too corrupt and politically unstable.  

>>And what is the deal about Germany(a very advanced
nation) having a supposedly very anti-cryonics public?
 I would think the "analytical" Germans would flock to
cryonics more then any other european would.<<

Yes, Germany is a good bet. The fact remains, though,
that it has far fewer (Alcor) members than the UK, and
might even have had fewer members than Holland if it
weren't for those terrible life insurance hassles.
However, there's significantly more interest in all
three countries now...Apparently there is at least one
group/person in Germany with "serious" plans for a
local facility, but I'm not sure whether anything will
actually come of it (probably not). 

>>I also wonder about Asia.  I am amazed that Japan
does not yet have a 
cryonics provider considering they are in some
technical ways a world 
leader.  But with the Metamorphosis Society gaining
strength I bet it 
is just a matter of time.  They have some excellent
people in the 

Frankly, I'm still amazed that there aren't already
millions, or at least thousands, of cryonicists in the
world. Or at least in the Western countries, anyway;
1-5 members might be understandable for Sierra Leone
or something, but not for a big industrialized country
like Germany. Even the "hundreds" of cryonicists in
the US is utterly pathetic if you think about it. This
is truly one of the greatest modern mysteries... 

>>I think with some assistance from American
organizations we could see 
the other parts of the developed world develop their
own cryonics 
providers. But who will be first to do it?  The
continental European or the 

I'd bet on Europe... ;-)  

>>My best wishes to them both.<<

Thanks, we/they can certainly use it.

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