X-Message-Number: 14863 Date: Mon, 6 Nov 2000 19:32:26 -0800 (PST) From: "D. den Otter" <> Subject: Re: Cryonics & Europe (various) CryoNet - Mon 6 Nov 2000 Message #14850 From: Date: Sun, 5 Nov 2000 12:36:32 EST Subject: sideline businesses >>First, I still think that, on a near-to-intermediate term outlook, it would be foolhardy for Europeans to rely on a new European organization. It makes much more sense for individuals there to join an existing organization, and then, if they wish, also pursue the goal of European full service, either through a new and separate organization or through a European branch of an existing organization.<< That's exactly what many of us have been doing. However, now that Alcor is pulling out of Europe, it seems like a good time to start something of our own. Right now, Europeans still appear to be welcome at CI, and I certainly appreciate that, but what guarantee do we have that we won't be kicked out again in a couple of years? And then what? Besides, I strongly suspect that having our own organization, if only a membership organization that has sub-contracts with CI, BioTransport or whatever, would significantly increase the interest in cryonics over here. Interest is clearly growing, but when people ask how/where they can sign up they're put off by the pricing and legal hassles. A European membership organization could streamline the sign-up process, hold sign-up parties, systematically promote cryonics etc., and in time also include (low budget) freezing services, while -at least initially- contracting out the more elaborate procedures to other organizations. Some of the low-cost suspensions could be charity cases (i.e. free or minimal fee) for those who really want a suspension, but can't afford it (preferably family members of those already signed up for a "normal" suspension). That would not only be the right thing to do, but also good PR for cryonics as a whole. This would put some added financial burdens on the organization, of course, which brings us to... >>If an individual, or a consortium, wants to start a business and allocate part of the profit to a cryonics organization, that's fine. But nothing new is involved; this has always been possible, and to some extent has always been done.<< But afaik not in an organized, large scale fashion. Cryonics has sometimes been accused of being a "cult", but the sad truth is that we're anything *but* a cult. A real "cult" would have mobilized its members, and aggressively gone into MLM etc. a long time ago. It would be rich like Scientology, *without* necessarily having to use their deplorable tactics, mind you. That's the beauty of MLM; if done well (see also below), it can not only help to fund the organization, but also improve the situation of everyone involved. >>As for Mr. den Otter's statement that existing sources of revenue are inadequate, I suggest he review Cryonics Institute's financial statements over the years. We are not only holding our own, but gaining.<< Ok, but there's not much room for error, and you can't do (regular) charity suspensions. More importantly, what we (in Europe) lack in talent, skills, manpower, potential membership etc., we must compensate with money. Things are so incredibly much easier if you have plenty o' cash to back you up. No more endless stress and self-sacrifice for the cause, just smooth, fast action. Wouldn't it be incredibly, um, *cool* if cryonics were more like its movie image: big, high-tech, buildings, lots of people in white coats, fully computerized freezers, tasteful underground crypts etc.? Success attracts the successful, and with the right kind of image, the rich & famous would probably be flocking to cryonics in no-time. >>None of this is intended to disparage or discourage new initiatives. New ideas, or old ideas in new hands, certainly have the possibility of gain. But newness for its own sake has no special merit, and risks loss of money and effort.<< As true pioneers we spit in the face of danger, or whatever. ;-) >>We can't just say, "If it aint broke, don't fix it." Something that isn't broken could still be improved, maybe greatly improved. But I would strongly advise caution on the part of newcomers, and a study of history.<< We are, at least partially, moving into uncharted territory here; it's been a while since the Mizar experiment, and things have rather improved in the last couple of years. More importantly, circumstances have *forced* us (including Alcor UK, the presumed nucleus of the new organization) into this experiment, so we might as well do it right. Help and advice from (and/or cooperation with) *any* of the American cryonics organizations is always welcome, though. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Message #14851 From: "John de Rivaz" <> References: <> Subject: Re: Cryonics & Europe Date: Sun, 5 Nov 2000 12:22:38 -0000 >> If you have a huge amount of money behind you professionals will be aware that they cannot extort and get away with it. If your finances are weak, they know they may be able to get away with it - you can't afford to investigate irregularities.<< Very true. Simply put, money = power, and you can never have too much of *that*. >>Yet I am not happy with the other suggestion of multi-level. The problem with it is even if successful, it can be transient.<< I'm fully aware of this, that's why, as the bigbooster site suggests, one should join several of these programs at once, use strict selection criteria (for example, never join programs that get repeatedly advertised by means of SPAM), and look out for signs that the program is coming to an end. MLM is very much like the stock market, and more or less the same basic rules apply: don't risk more money than you can miss, don't put all your eggs in once basket, and don't expect it to last forever. Actually, a good MLM program is more reliable (predictable) than the stock market. So what if it has a life cycle, doesn't everything? As long as you take that into account, you can't really go wrong. Last but not least, once you've made some money as a player, you can start your *own* program, that's where the really big money is. >>Once I was involved with something called Terra Libra, got in near the start after reading their flyer in Venturist Voice, and, yes, I started making money. But what happens - they change management and drop early members sitting at the top of the pyramid "getting money for nothing". Succeed and you get thrown out for success. Fail -- well you just fail. They also had a spin off called "Life Money Success" which I later discovered was designed to fail after the leaders sold it. It was taken over by some enthusiasts who were determined to keep it going, but it gradually withered and died.<< See above. There *are* people who make big $$ almost every time, both as players and as organizers. We need to learn their exact tricks. It may not be "easy as pie", but it's well worth the effort IMO. Did you ultimately lose money on those games, or did you still manage to make a profit, btw? >>Yes, Multi-level can make money in the short term, but it does not have staying power that is appropriate for an organisation which by its very nature has to be stable for 50 or more decades. However the public stock markets and technology investment in particular could be used to make serious money over a period of time.<< But if you use MLM programs to get you started and then invest part of that money in technology stocks etc., then surely you have the best of both worlds? Not to mention the fact that the concept of MLM (as opposed to specific programs, which indeed don't last forever) will be around for a long time to come. >>If you wanted to fund your new cryonics organisation from a safe source, then I would guestimate that you'd need of the order of $6M (drawing 5%) to do so. Using the ten ten rule for technology investment, if you start with $600 you could get there in about 40 years. (Add another zero to the input and reduce the number of decades.)<< IMO this further illustrates that we need something like MLM to bridge that gap, and/or increase the input. Earning, say, a couple of thousand dollars in MLM isn't all that unrealistic, and this money could be (partially) used to invest in tech stocks or whatever. But of course you could so *a lot* better than that with a dedicated group effort... Also, $6M might be somewhat on the high side; it could probably be done with (much) less (though more is obviously better). Other than that it's a sound idea, of course. >>Another way to stay in business is arranging the growth generating parts in economically free countries that do not have capital taxation.<< You mean something like the Bahamas? Yes, good idea. > At the very least, the LN2 storage should be a fully > insulated and "closed" system, which is only opened > for patient insertion/removal. This too could be > almost fully automated etc., but these matters are > somewhat beyond the scope of this post. >>And also much easier said than done.<< No one said it was going to be easy, but it isn't exactly impossible either, and should be well within local capabilities (and if you get the cash part right, you can order a custom-build installation, of course). > The bottom > line is that Europeans have the *means* to create > their own self-sufficient organization, but still need > a "triumph of the will". >>An inappropriate phrase if ever the was one. The film "Triumph of the Will" should have been more correctly called "Subjugation of the Will" but then its backers would never have stood for that :-)<< Hmm, I see. Well, maybe what they need is a "kick in the ass", then. ;-) >>What I don't think it is sensible to expect is for any one individual to say to other individuals "give me your money and I will set up an organisation".<< No, ideally this would be a real group effort. >>Don't try and spend money promoting gift schemes. Hoping you can raise money by persuading people giving theirs to you is not going to work.<< It works for *some* people, so why couldn't this include cryonicists? Are we cursed or something (ok, sometimes, I actually think we are)? Also, we don't really have that much realistic alternatives, at least not for the short- & medium term. >>Cryonics is unique as far as I can see inasmuch as it thrives on technological progress. That fact could be used by a young person to make the money required for what Mr den Otter has proposed. If the ten-ten progress is not there, then it may well be that technbological progress will never get to the stage where revivals are possible anyway. But otherwise, a "20 something" European could read this message, say nothing, invest his relatively small sum of momey in a technology mutual fund OEIC or unit trust and come back decades later with a fait accompli.<< In a couple of decades cryonics might be almost a moot point...We need something *now*. >The US cryonics orgs are not > the real problem >>Of course not. They appeared without any organisations on other contients as role models. Their very existance provides support for anyone else starting up now.<< True, though their existence is sometimes also used as a convenient excuse for not starting anything over here. > From: > Date: Sat, 4 Nov 2000 10:24:41 EST > Dave Pizer suggests that Europe and Asia might be able to support one or more > new cryonics organizations. > I still think history suggests otherwise, for the near term. The USA is > indeed different from other countries, in varying degree, in several ways. >>An important factor may be that internal transport is much easier than internal transport inside Europe, ie between European countries.<< Aren't we supposed to have open borders on the European mainland nowadays? Note that at least for the time being, the only "serious" players are the UK, Germany and Holland. Travel between the latter two is very easy indeed, and any restrictions regarding transport between Holland and the UK can be researched, anticipated and incorporated into emergency plans. Apart from this, each country should have its own basic washout facility, or contracts with funeral directors etc. to handle the first phase of a suspension. > But it isn't a case of either-or. Why should Eurpeans wait until--maybe, some > day--a reliable European organization exists? In fact, if Europeans and > others join CI, for example, they can still form a European organization > later, and probably much more easily with their CI experience to draw upon. > Very little money would be "wasted," if any, and time and lives might be > saved. >>This is what I have thought for years, and I strongly agree. If he is not already in CI, Mr Den Otter could join CI using the trust method (with term insurance if he feels he needs it) and then have the funds available if technology advances enough to make his funds of suitable magnitude.<< I'm currently with Alcor, but if they kick me (and other Europeans) out, I'll probably join CI (assuming that this will be possible) until -if ever- we'll have something of our own. >>But if I ever get huge sums of money and decide I could set up a cryonics facility with it, then it will be where I live, not necessarily where other existing European cryonicists live. So would anyone else do the same thing with money they had generated.<< If it were up to me I'd place the actual facility in the politically, geographically etc. most favorable location, which probably wouldn't be near where I live. No need for that, as long as you have some washout/cooling gear and people who know how to use it nearby. The ideal location for a cryonics facility would be a disused bunker, btw. Good security, good insulation, good ambiance, and often remarkably affordable as well. You could put a house on top and have someone permanently live there, though good security measures (net-linked, motion-detecting video surveillance, for example) could make this redundant. The latter sounds more expensive than it actually is, mind you; you could even use ordinary web cams for this sort of thing. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Message #14852 From: "john grigg" <> Subject: cryonics in Europe & Asia Date: Mon, 06 Nov 2000 00:28:04 GMT >>I have a question for the list members, especially those who are well-travelled Americans or European citizens. Which European nation would be the most fertile ground to start a homegrown cryonics organization? I realize England already has an Alcor outpost. But what about the continent itself?<< Germany & the Netherlands, probably(?) in that order. >>Would France be a good place(supposedly they have a lust for the good life which could be continued with cryonics)?<< No, they have some strange burial laws that make cryonics practically impossible, afaik, and there generally doesn't seem to be much interest anyway. >>Switzerland(an obsession with fiscal and physical safety and security)?<< Maybe...A bit hard to reach though from the rest of Europe. >>Or how about an eastern european nation like Poland or Romania where costs would be cheaper?<< Probably too corrupt and politically unstable. >>And what is the deal about Germany(a very advanced nation) having a supposedly very anti-cryonics public? I would think the "analytical" Germans would flock to cryonics more then any other european would.<< Yes, Germany is a good bet. The fact remains, though, that it has far fewer (Alcor) members than the UK, and might even have had fewer members than Holland if it weren't for those terrible life insurance hassles. However, there's significantly more interest in all three countries now...Apparently there is at least one group/person in Germany with "serious" plans for a local facility, but I'm not sure whether anything will actually come of it (probably not). >>I also wonder about Asia. I am amazed that Japan does not yet have a cryonics provider considering they are in some technical ways a world leader. But with the Metamorphosis Society gaining strength I bet it is just a matter of time. They have some excellent people in the organization.<< Frankly, I'm still amazed that there aren't already millions, or at least thousands, of cryonicists in the world. Or at least in the Western countries, anyway; 1-5 members might be understandable for Sierra Leone or something, but not for a big industrialized country like Germany. Even the "hundreds" of cryonicists in the US is utterly pathetic if you think about it. This is truly one of the greatest modern mysteries... >>I think with some assistance from American organizations we could see the other parts of the developed world develop their own cryonics providers. But who will be first to do it? The continental European or the Japanese?<< I'd bet on Europe... ;-) >>My best wishes to them both.<< Thanks, we/they can certainly use it. __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Thousands of Stores. Millions of Products. All in one Place. http://shopping.yahoo.com/ Rate This Message: http://www.cryonet.org/cgi-bin/rate.cgi?msg=14863