X-Message-Number: 14887
From: "Marta Sandberg" <>
Subject: Frogs, fish and hope
Date: Fri, 10 Nov 2000 13:36:34 GMT

Thank you, Jeff.

On the 8th November I wrote a posting on frozen frogs and (unfrozen) 
Antarctic fish, and Jeff Davis replied with a few thoughts on using 
customized liposome, nano-bots or 
something-else-we-haven t-even-though-about-yet to force the antifreeze 
molecules into our cells.

Good point. We shouldn t let our thoughts be limited by what was possible 
yesterday.  It can be easier to look through the rear-view mirror rather 
than forward through the windshield.

Even if none of these ideas pan out, Antarctic fish are still useful to us 
simply by existing. They prove that effective antifreeze in living animals 
is thinkable. In the same way that birds, bats and insects proved that 
flight was thinkable. It took a long time to go from people looking at birds 
with envy to people boarding a Jumbo jet. The answer wasn t as simple as men 
sticking feathers on their arms and flapping vigorously and there were a few 
scenic detours with hot-air balloons. But as long as the dream persisted, 
humanity forged ahead.

Today flying is routine. Tomorrow freezing may be too.

An effective way to long-term preserve donor organs could give us a boost. 
After all, cryonics is sort-of in the organ-preservation business.

One of the big practical problems with cryonics is arranging timely 
suspension for members who drop dead at inconvenient times in inconvenient 
places. CI uses funeral directors to get around this, as they are available 
all over the world and usually have an after-hours contact number. On the 
other hand a funeral director may baulk at the new high-tech suspension 
techniques currently being proposed.

On the other hand, almost all Western countries have a system in place to 
harvest and preserve donor organs. Right now their methods resemble  fresh 
chilled meat  and aren t useful to cryonics. But if perfusion and 
longer-term storage become available, then. . . .

Wouldn t it be great if we could coat-tail on existing medical 
superstructure? Available anywhere and any time? With specially trained 
staff who do it all the time? And who are used to transporting organs/bodies 
across state and national borders?

One can always dream. Hang on, Jeff.

Long life,


>Message #14879
>Date: Wed, 08 Nov 2000 13:43:22 -0800
>From: Jeff Davis <>
>Subject: Re: Frogs and fish

>Marta Sandberg wrote, referring to natural, antarctic-fish cryoprotectant:

> >The last point is moot. The molecules are too large to be absorbed >into 
>cells. Unless they can be slimmed down they can't be used as a >perfusate 

>"Can't be used.." is pretty strong language.

>Always be aware--or try to occasionally remind yourself--of the natural
>human tendency to think 'habitually': to mistake the way things are >with 
>the way things will always be, mistake the way things are done now, with 
>the way they will always be done.


>The only 'real' question is "How long?"  I'll be fifty-two in December.  If 
>I can hold out for another twenty years--my health is good but my family 
>has a history of cancer--I expect to have available to me a vastly improved 
>suspension capability.  Perhaps even 'routine' >reversible suspension. 
>Perhaps even socially-mandated, universal, >legally-guaranteed access to 
>suspension as medical entitlement.  It >is, after all, a life-saving 

>Like my boy, Ray, says.

>			Best, Jeff Davis

>	   "Everything's hard till you know how to do it."
>					Ray Charles

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