X-Message-Number: 14999
References: <>
Date: Thu, 23 Nov 2000 13:48:42 +0000
From: "Joseph Kehoe" <>
Subject: Turing People

>HOWEVER, some comments:
>
>1. No one yet has produced a proof that a real-time computer with the
>   features of brains would actually be imitatable by a Turing machine.

hi,

All computers are imitatable by Turing Machines (of course Turing machines are 
not time bounded).
Unless it is some new as yet unknown architecture...

>2. Just like primitive creatures, the basis of our brains' working
>   depends not on math or logic but on the special features of our
>   neurons as "machines". This is not just a statement about hardware,
>   but a statement of how our thinking works. The calculations of a
>   computer depend not on themselves but on the meaning human beings
>   attach to them. Our own thinking depends on those basic processes,
>   which generate (sometimes) patterns which look like logic and math.


One could argue that the entire universe is based on math and logic. Can anyone 
name a process that  cannot be modelled by some math equation?

Gravity, quantum chemistry, molecules.  If the building blocks are all 
modelable(?) then why not those things made up of interactions of those things?

Is it the case that everything in the universe can be modelled by mathematical 
equations except for brains?

If people believe this is so the burden of proof is on them to explain what this
substance is we have which is so different from everything else in the 
universe.

We are special in that we are the most complex system that we know of but that 
is a difference of magnitude not type.


The only point I will cede is one of speed.  If you are saying that the 
complexity is such that we will never have the speed to model it in real time 
due to some as yet unfound complexity property then maybe.

It is always possible that we will reach some point beyond which we cannot go 
and that this point is below the speed needed to model the brain but it seems 
more and more unlikey as each year goes past.


People can already mimic the structure of the part of the brain that we use for 
vision (Carver Mead I believe) and various other components.

We do not know enough about the brain to prove that it can be done but we have 
found nothing so far that is not modelable and the more we find out the less 
likely such a find seems.

So far our models are too crude but I am unable to think of any part of the 
process that we will be unable to overcome. Can anyone name one.
Ability to form new connections - Already done with current NN models.

Ability to grow - Not a problem, I believe I saw a paper on it a few years ago 
but cannot be sure.

mimic an actual neuron - We are getting closer (give it 5 years on the outside).

speed - Look at recent progress in speed and extropolate (done too often to 
repeat here).

Proof will be an existance one.  I cannot provide it now but I believe all the 
evidence is on my side.


The question of whether the copy is you is a different one.  the answer is no;-)

But to say that to be alive you must be carbon based wetware is plain old carbon
bigotry!

p.s.

Recently read the Great Mambo chicken and the Transhuman condition.  Funny to 
see so many people here on this list turning up in the book. A great read. Made 
me sorry I don't live over there and get to see it all first hand.


p.p.s. Still busy - married last Saturday, work deadlines over the next three 
weeks.

If anyone can find a hole in my argument I will use this as an excure and 
claimed that I already knew it! ;-)


Joseph.

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