X-Message-Number: 15287 Date: Sun, 7 Jan 2001 23:10:53 -0500 Subject: Charles Platt's Many Ludicrous Remarks From: On Christmas Eve, Mr. Charles Platt decided he would regale us all with some jolly yuletide cheer by returning to Cryonet after a ten-month sabbatical. In the course of spreading Holiday merriment, and later, he made a number of remarks concerning CI that were not terribly accurate. I would like to respond to a few. 1. Observing that not much research had been posted, Mr. Platt wrote: To be fair, there has been reference to recent research" financed by CI, but anyone who reads the relevant web site will find a paucity of fundamental data to evaluate the claims. While implicitly suggesting that professional cryobiologists are incompetent, the page shows an insulting disregard for the proper documentation of lab work--procedures which I learned in high school. I am happy to note that Mr. Platt wished to be fair. I am less happy to note that six words later his resolution falters as he refers to CI s in quotes as research ie pseudo-research as opposed to the valid sort, ie, those that support his own views. People who wish to be insulted by CI s disregard for properly documented lab work rather than Mr. Platt's helpful five-word summary of it may indulge their masochism by reading reports of Dr. Pichugin s properly documented lab work at http://www.cryonics.org/research2.html and at http://www.cryonics.org/research3.html, both of which have been publicly available since the page s inception in 1997. As for Mr. Platt s claim that CI is implicitly suggesting that professional cryobiologists are incompetent -- well, that suggestion is so very implicit that I confess I couldn t find it at all. Maybe he was trying to tell us implicitly that there is no such explicit suggestion. That, certainly, is true. As far as CI views of cryobiologists go, the studies on which CI protocols have to date been largely based were repeated and evaluated by Dr. Yuri Pichugin, who not only is a cryobiologist, but who was trained and employed as such at the largest cryobiology institute in the world at Kharkov in the Ukraine, and who is currently working under the direction of Dr. Greg Fahy for the Institute of Neural Cryobiology. Since his work there has been of no small relevance to the new vitrification procedures, I must assume that Mr. Platt would characterize the good doctor's latter efforts as good good non-CI research as opposed to evil evil CI research . Mr. Platt then added, Worst of all, I see absolutely no interest on CryoNet in discussing this work or its methodology, or the sloppy way in which it was reported, or its claim to debunk the past ten years of orthodox cryobiology. Given that the web page nowhere states, The past ten years of orthodox cryobiology is bunk, it is not terribly surprising that it isn t a hot topic on C-net. No one (barring Charles) debates statements that aren t made. Can he mean Russian Orthodox cryobiology, maybe? To my knowledge, CI has not claimed to debunk that either. In what way, however, is CI claiming to debunk ten years of cryobiology, readers may be wondering? It is hard to debunk an entire field of science, after all, even if you do it so implicitly that only Charles Platt can spot it. Mr. Platt does not tell us above, but I think what Mr. Platt is darkly referring to is the long-bemoaned fact that CI has favored one-pass rather than stepped or continuous ramping in its suspension procedures. (For the 99% of you out there who are not cryobiologists, orthodox, Catholic, or reformed, preparing a body for freezing involves removing the blood -- which freezes and causes ice damage -- with a solution that reduces such damage. All cooling procedures cause some damage, alas, but CI s initial tests suggested that doing this replacement in one pass produced mildly less damaging results than pumping the solution in and out in gradually increased percentages. This has been controversial because of the charge that one-pass could produce osmotic shock and damage cells. CI, however, ran tests, sent them out-of house for an objective evaluation, and got the report that one-pass actually produced somewhat less damage than the alternative. On publicly presenting these test results, the response of critics was, in essence, Well, you must be bunglers and the evaluations must be a pack of lies! This perhaps Charles high school lab methodology run amuck -- did not seem to the people at CI to be a terribly effective refutation.) Now if I can digress for just a moment -- when I joined CI, I found this disparity to be kind of interesting. See, in the real world of biological science, as opposed to the rant-o-rama of Cryonet, actual tests on biological subjects tend to produce somewhat varying results. Different results by different researchers is the norm, not the exception. Person A has a cigarette and develops lung cancer instantly; Person B smokes three packs a day for seventy years and dies jogging. There are always individual differences what tends to prevail is an eventual consensus over a large number of tests over time. Thus I was not so much surprised that CI and (say) BPI results differed in the few tests run. What did surprise me was the fact that the difference seemed to excite so much rancor and rigidity one-pass was flatly demonized and gradual ramping exalted, and -- well, that was that. End of discussion! CI s research was not disputed at all -- simply dismissed out of hand. (To be completely truthful, I should also say that I was privately informed that the really definitive reason CI s practices was so appallingly neanderthal because a competing organization no conflict of interest there! ran a test of CI procedures and got very bad results. This was daunting news indeed till I dug further and learned that the test was not one of actual CI procedures but rather of the researcher s best guess of CI procedures. The researcher in question publicly referred to these procedures on one occasion as B.S. that s bull shit for you foreign readers and in the course of applying his personal vision of B.S. procedures, the researcher in question got B.S. results. How very surprising, eh?) To get back to my story, however: what puzzled me was the fact that one-pass seemed to have a certain common-sense advisability about it. It is almost an axiom of cryonics that patients need to be cooled rapidly, lest ischemia and structural deterioration sets in. Well, one-pass is the most rapid method there is. Gradual ramping, according to Alcor s web page on the subject, takes several hours. Even granted the possibility that gradual ramping might be better in some respects, surely, I thought, maintaining patients at higher temperatures for longer times must produce at least some greater structural degradation. It could not be black/white: surely there had to be some level of trade-off. On asking around, however, I was told that gradual was best, period, that any actual actual tests run by CI ought to be ignored, and that one-pass was not merely not as good, but, quote, worthless that patients treated by one-pass were absolutely irrecoverable by any conceivable scientific method or development till the end of time. This seemed to me to be overstating things. So I looked further. Why was there this difference? I next found out that CI and other organizations tended to apply their methods on rather different sorts of patients. When Alcor, for instance, does (or did) experiments on animals, they would take a perfectly healthy dog, anesthetize it, and apply their procedures. CI, by contrast, would arrange to have a sheep decapitated at a slaughterhouse, pack the head in ice, take it to their facilities, and begin the process fifteen minutes to a half hour later. CI s reasoning, I learned, was that the latter method (alas) more closely approximated the conditions under which an actual cryonics member was likely to die. Of the former method, one can only say that no cryonics patient is ever going to be anesthetized in perfect health, ramped with glycerol, and frozen. The one procedure was practical; the other abstract. But could that account for the difference? Certainly it would account for any apparently better dog head results as opposed to sheep head results. That speculation did not answer my question though, so on I slogged, learning another interesting fact: apparently, the difference between ramping and one-pass is not so great at the high levels of cryoprotectant used in cryonics cases. In the November 1984 issue of the American Journal of Physiology (page C384), we learn that granulocyte survival declines most rapidly between 0-0.5 Molar glycerol, and is steady at 20% survival above 1.0 Molar. Since 7 or greater molarity of glycerol is used in cryonics cases, the viability data for such low concentrations may not be terribly relevant. (Incidentally, I might point out to readers, that after several weeks with a dictionary of biology terms and other works, I actually know what the above sentence means. Most people don t. When they read molar , they think teeth. Charles seems to have mild fits over the fact that great tracts of the CI web page are written in English for lay readers, as opposed to the purer form of sheets of incomprehensible cryobiologese accessible only to the vitro-elite, before whose cryptic pronouncements we the lowly hoi-polloi can only scrape and grovel. CI feels that when you re talking to everybody, you have to talk clearly and simply. That does not mean that more complex or critical material is ignored. As Charles knows or does he? CI links directly not merely to Alcor, to Open Directory s cryo pages, to 21CM, to the Cryonet Archives, to the BPI tech briefs, indeed to every criticism of CI, fair, absurd, and hare-brained, that there is. The charge that CI misinforms people is only true to the extent that we give people access to even to misinformation about CI, trusting their judgment to see through obvious nonsense.) Anyway, what all the above meant was that difference between one-pass and gradual in cryonic perfusion, while real, might perhaps best be characterized as not exactly radical. I forged on nonetheless, still determined to find on why even the small discrepancy that is there is there. But my quest for the truth was cut off at the knees by CI s quote-unquote research . You see, CI does not only test its procedures, but re-tests them, and upgrades them, and so on. It s a never-ending thing. CI also believes that the best people to evaluate procedures are not those that have a vested interest in supporting one protocol over the other. Thus CI tries to find qualified objective third party labs and universities to evaluate blind (unlabelled) samples. This it did, and in the latest round of tests it has so far turned out that stepped ramping has in fact produced a marginal but arguable improvement over one-pass. Noted the (university-based, non-CI, PhD) research scientist doing the evaluation: My impression of [stepped] and [one-pass] is that the middle regions of the brain look the same. I think I could argue that [stepped] is subjectively slightly better on the inner-most and outer-most brain regions. This is not exactly a ringing endorsement, but it does lean toward gradual ramping, and CI goes by test results. Hence sufferers in the Cryonet community can breath a sigh of relief: Charles Platt need no longer beat this particular horse to death. I should note in passing that this does not mean that CI intends to stop re-testing variations on this procedure. In the year 2000 abstracts from the December 2000 issue of the journal Cryobiology, Dr. Greg Fahy describes a new vitrification solution in which propylene glycol is replaced with ethylene glycol a long-neglected cryoprotectant that the abstract indicates may very well be an improvement over glycerol when used on human patients. (A point very ably made by Doug Skrecky earlier.) Does gradual ramping of ethylene glycol, as opposed to glycerol, produce better results than ramping it in one pass? Beats me. How would I know? But I expect that CI will be running tests to find out. Is it better to run tests based on discoveries from a world-famous cryobiologist published in the very latest issue of a mainstream cryobiological journal? Or is it better to base treatments on the recommendations of sci-fi novelist Charles Platt based on tests run by non-cryobiologists, quote, more than FIFTEEN YEARS ago? Gosh -- it s hard to say. All I know is that at this point independent third-party evaluation of CI tests confirmed what common sense suggested all along namely, that it wasn t the case that one procedure was effective and the other worthless B.S. What the findings indicate is that both approaches work in the sense that both reduce freezing damage, and that the actual results are somewhat different, rather mixed, and fairly slim. Why have I mentioned this at such length? Well, because to listen to Charles Platt s portrayal of CI, you get this carefully arranged picture of the place as a dank Castle of Dracula about which Dr. Frankenstein s hunchbacked assistant Igor lopes, drawing black curtains to veil the horrors within. In point of fact, when I wanted to find out about the one-pass controversy, all I had to do was ask Robert Ettinger explained CI s position, Andy Zawacki the Plant Manager gave his views, I was pointed to the journals, to the reports, the links, the sources, etc., etc. CI was as open as open could be. The only problem I had getting information was not getting information from CI about what it was doing and why, but dealing with out-of-date misinformation from its critics, and having to dig past the global innuendo and personal attacks to specific charges. Once that was done, then it was possible to get to the bedrock of disinterested specific studies, where things fell into place. Needless to say, the muck is still being slung, but be heartened, readers: as Fox Mulder says: The truth is out there. 2. Speaking of The Immortalist, Mr. Platt said, At this point, we have NO reliable source of timely information about cryonics in general. CI's monthly magazine has never covered any topic in depth, as I recall CI s bimonthly magazine The Immortalist (sample articles of which are available at http://www.cryonics.org/info.html, which I believe includes a link to Charles Platt s own self-defined shallow review of a 21CM conference) has been in publication for 25 years. I am sorry that Charles, having read every last Immortalist article in the past quarter-century, finds them all, including his own, lacking in depth. I ascribe this to his discriminatingly high aristocratic standards. By golly, the man must stick his pinky out when sipping Earl Grey. True, I think he is correct when he says that there is a need for an ecumenical publication covering cryonics. The only problem is, it already exists. The July-August 2000 issue of The Immortalist, for instance, had an article covering the Cryonics Society of Canada gathering, two articles by former CryoCare President Ben Best (one, a critical technical article on then-CI procedures titled Cryoprotectant Addition Procedure in Cryonics Protocol ), Paul Wakfer of INC s appeal for donations for the Hippocampal Project (which Alcor s Cryonics magazine refused to carry), reprinted Cryonet posts from Alcor members Scott Badger, Mike Perry, David Pizer, and Natasha Vita-More, not to mention a full-page ad soliciting members for ACS, a competing organization. Talk about lack of depth! No timely information about cryonics in general here! I think maybe the problem is that Charles is so busy condemning CI s publication that he doesn t have to time to read it. He prefers (grudgingly) to subscribe to Alcor s Cryonics magazine, which apparently makes it a point of policy to never mention CI or ACS and to carry no articles by CI or ACS members. (Is all the space taken up by trenchantly self-critical assessments of hot topics like vitrification instead? I'm afraid not. Skeptical or critical assessments of certain topics -- well, on such neither Cryonics magazine nor Charles Platt's pen sheds a drop of ink.) Policies like this are perhaps why according to a recent Immortalist readership survey, there are actually more Alcor members reading The Immortalist than Cryonics Institute members. Where else are they going to find out what s going on? I might add in passing one of the things that I most like about The Immortalist (apart from the brilliant literary standards implied by the fact that they publish my stuff) is that it is a clear demonstration that different cryonics organizations and the people in them can actually can you believe it? -- get along amicably. CI and ACS are competitors: nonetheless both CI and ACS run ads for members in the magazine, and CI and ACS both print their respective organizational updates and member articles. They share information, and space, and do so with mutual respect and in peace. This is not how it ought to be: this is how it is. It s an example I wish more people would learn from. In this connection, I might add that one of the (many) reasons I take great pride in being a CI member is that this is the way CI tries to behave generally. For example, when Charles Platt's own organization CryoCare was going under, CI (despite years of acrid remarks from CC principals like Charles) went out of its way to hear its then-President Ben Best s appeal for assistance, and actually voted to re-write its own rules to ensure shelter for CryoCare patients and to allow dual memberships for CryoCare members in an attempt to help CC survive. CC died regardless, ecumenically banning even one-page CI flyers from being handed out at its last meeting; but still, CI's actions seemed to me to be the way cryonics members and organizations ought to act. I don't think such behavior need be limited to CI either. Although CI and Alcor are generally portrayed as two great stags with horns locked in eternal combat, my own experience with rank and file Alcor members is that they are decent as a group of folks as can be. Whatever formal policies might be in place higher up, on a personal level, Alcorians are great, and I personally hope and believe that eventually CI and Alcor should and will end up with as friendly relations at the top as there very often is among the rank and file. As with CI and ACS, it just makes more sense to work together and support each other than to bicker and go it alone. Anyway. (To get back to my bickering.) Even-handedly expanding his assault to trash all cryonics media, Mr. Platt concluded: While we live in a so-called information age, this field contains less information than at any time in its forty-year history. Really? While Charles occasionally favors us with a good comment, now and then he comes up a genuine beauty. What? There is actually less information about cryonics in 2000 than there was in 1960 four years *before* Robert Ettinger published The Prospect Of Immortality? There was really more information about cryonics available *before cryonics even existed*? Charles! You need to take some deep breaths and lie down, man! 3. In post number 2 (or was 7 or 9 or 13? Mercifully, one forgets), the tireless Mr. Platt observed: cryonics is more moribund today than it has been at any point in the past--with the possible exception of the period following the Nelson scandal at Chatsworth. This is quite bizarre, bearing in mind the unprecedented progress that has been made in relevant research. As with many of Charles comments, it s only bizarre if you restrict yourself to seeing only those negative aspects or interpretations that you want to see. CI, for instance, is not what I would call moribund. In the last five years, its total assets have nearly doubled to well over two million dollars, putting it ahead of Alcor, I believe. Its membership has doubled in rather less time than that, and its web site is up to 44,000+ hits. I believe that CI s gotten nearly as many members in 2000 alone as CryoCare managed to get in its entire history. In the last year alone, CI also developed traveling team services, cell storage services, *cut* dues for large families, started up an electronics newsletter at http://www.egroups.com/long_life, translated its web pages into Spanish, done new research ooops, I mean new research (no wait! Charles approves of gradual ramping, so we must be doing genuine research now, not the quotation-mark variety. Hurray!). Moribund? There are a lot of things you can call this, and if it s negative and inaccurate, no doubt Charles will strive hard to come up with a couple. But moribund is not one of them. Mr. Platt: When controversial procedures are not accompanied by journalistic coverage, we have a fertile ground for deception. I am absolutely not suggesting that such a thing has happened recently; I am merely pointing out that when organizations are able to operate with total lack of third-party oversight, and they are not diligent about reporting critically on themselves, this is a potentially dangerous situation. Cryonics malpractice has happened in the past, and it will happen again. The right way to deal with it is to analyze, publicly, what went wrong, and take steps, publicly, to avoid similar debacles in the future. Sounds like CI's got no third-party oversight, don't it? (That Charles Platt lets it get away with anything.) I'm afraid not. In terms of third-party journalistic and other oversight, CI does in fact use third-party rather than in-house oversight in evaluating its procedures, not to mention allowing both the general public and people from competing organizations (like ACS) to simply come over and have a look. Last month a Detroit journalist came by and looked the place over; this month the BBC is doing a program on CI headquarters; a while ago, Kitty Antonik-Wakfer, the wife of Paul Wakfer of INC, was the (very charming) guest of honor at the annual meeting, where I myself nominated former CryoCare President Ben Best for a Directorship. Total lack of third-party oversight? Maybe elsewhere. 4. In reply to Mr. Billy Seidel, Mr. Platt wrote an entire post entitled (appropriately) Negativity . In answer to all the comments on his posts as exhibitions of indulge in negativism and verbal abuse , Charles responded by pointing out the great utility of negative feedback, and by stating that he himself was not negative at all. (Am I kidding? No: I have not noticed any verbal abuse, Billy -- except from one person who chose to attack me, noted Charles with a straight face, adding elsewhere, in my original post I was extremely careful not to be critical.") I have to say that I agreed with him on both points. There is nothing better in the world than criticism. Criticism points out your weaknesses, shows you the places where you can improve, points out the dangers ahead and the mistakes to avoid repeating. In fact the great philosopher of science Sir Karl Popper was of the opinion that the very definition of a scientific proposition was that it should be capable of being criticized and refuted. Criticism is wonderful! That s the problem with Charles criticism -- it s not critical enough. You see, real criticism, devastating criticism, is specific, consistent, even-handed, and (best of all) works by offering a better alternative. Charles wimpy yawps have have none of these manly qualities. Probe under the flashy verbal surface and instead of substance there is boneless fog. For example: the entire cryonics movement, he claims, is moribund . Well OK. What do we do to get un-moribund, Charles? Jump up and down a lot? Opt for burial, like yourself? As a remedy for torpor, burial is rather limp, don t you think? Cryonics magazines are insufficiently critical, he says. Will cryonics magazines, hearing this trumpet call, run an unending series of articles entitled Why We Stink ? I think not. Cryonet posts are full of irrelevancy, says Mr. Platt. Are they? What of it? Why not just skip what bores you? That's generally what I do when I see Mr. Platt's byline. But what s the alternative he offers? Censorship? A new list? We learn (over and over and over) what he detests, but what does he propose? Take vitrification. What are 21CM s formulae, of which Alcor has, I believe, only one? We don t know. How is it applied? I understand that Alcor has varied from 21CM instructions by cooling more rapidly and by used higher concentrations. How much more rapidly, how much higher? We don t know. We know that INC s applications left only 53% of a brain slice viable, and viable strictly in terms of potassium/sodium ratios; and that higher concentrations produce more toxicity and thus less brain viability. How much more toxicity, how much less viability? We don t know. (We don t even know if *they* know.) Have any tests been run to find out? We don t know. Who applies it? In the first case, unnamed contract consultants (trained? untrained?) from an unnamed company. How quickly? Less than thirty hours in one case; more than thirty in the other. How much more, how much less? We don t know. If CI were to come up with something like this, Charles Platt would be all over it with a dripping ax. But since Charles thinks vitrification is the cat s meow -- well, he s all over CI with a dripping ax anyhow, waxing eloquent on Robert Ettinger s mean-spiritedness for daring to question the arrival of the vitro-Messiah. This sort of even-handed search for the truth may be verbally sharp, but I ask you can this really be called criticism ? These sorts of remarks from Mr. Platt are not really critical; which is to say, they re not really dispassionate solution-oriented assessments geared to actually changing things for the better. They re merely tantrums. Outbursts of Charles admitted anger which, as he tells us, is a mere fifth of the rancor burgeoning in his tormented breast. I am using powerful internal filtering techniques to filter my personal anger and disgust, he tells us. I think his filters need cleaning. No, Mr. Platt has no real affection for criticism. Only for his own. Monologue is his forte, not dialogue. He calls out for universal criticism of cryonics practices, but when Mr. Robert Ettinger dares to mention some reservations about vitrification, Charles all but smacks him with a truncheon. Mr. Ettinger, we hear, is jealous, competitive, credulous, two-faced, deliberating lying, distorting, misleading, etc., etc. Can this really be called serious analysis? I mean, really -- can Robert Ettinger actually be this shambling ogre escaped from the pages of Fangoria that Platt describes? And even if so, how does that invalidate his actual criticisms? I mean if (as Mr. Ettinger says) the only vitrification tests run on two rabbit kidneys took them down to 80 C, which is one bare degree lower than dry ice temperature, well that s true, isn t it? Truths matter don t they? With Mr. Platt, I can t help but get the impression that only very thin band of selective truths matter, and only those that support already arrived-at views. The discomforting ones get very short shrift. We want universal criticism! he thunders. But when zero criticism about vitrification appears in Alcor s Cryonics magazine or web site, that s ignored. When Robert Ettinger offers anything less than a rave review of it, he s all but nuked. Reader, consider: when you read Charles Platt on cryonics, do you really feel yourself in the presence of a dispassionate person who is humbly and amiably seeking the truth for its own sake, and for the enlightenment of his beloved brethren? I rather suspect readers they feel that they ve fallen into the presence of a most able and eloquent mind, but one that s gotten sadly trapped in the fevered, indiscriminate, knee-jerk habit of negation, and selective negation at that. Charles isn t cracked, of course; he occasionally allows that all current patients may be recoverable, that nanotech may do all that its practitioners allow, etc. But his text hardly ripples with such perfunctory admissions. Rather, it most comes alive in that moist crunch when his grammatical brass knuckles land. What catches the eye of his prose is the chink in the armor, the Achilles Heel, the weakness, any weakness, that diminishes and downgrades cryonics and all the people in it except for himself and his own tiny splinter faction. Is it the novelist s habit of dramatization, the fiction-writer s mental twitch for a bloody clash of good versus evil? And his prose *is* dramatic. All that Gothic splendor: 'Doom, doom! Eldritch Villainy! Lurking Horrors!' But sadly, it is fiction: an artfully described despairing perspective on things, rather than an artless statement of facts. Mr. Platt notes: As I have said many times before, it was this ruthless honesty which persuaded me to get involved with cryonics. Since it also coincided with the biggest surge of growth in the history of any organization, clearly negative feedback isn't bad for business, either. On the contrary--negative feedback is extremely reassuring, since it encourages prospective members to trust the organization. Stirring words: but one has to point out that people who trusted in the happy negativity streaming from CryoCare were left with no suspension provider, no storage provider, and no organization. Clearly negative feedback wasn't bad for business there fatal maybe, but not bad. His remark concerning The biggest surge of growth in the history of any organization is factually incorrect: that title goes to the recent jump in memberships at CI. And the ruthless honesty which got Charles into cryonics? It apparently got him right out again, along with Mike Darwin and several others. One reaps what one sows, but does Charles Platt notice this meager harvest? I really don t think so. No, his 'powerful internal filters' simply filter it out. His already decided position is that negativity is good, so he looks for evidence that it is, and when he finds some, the search is over. That the immediate rush is followed by a grinding crash, imperiling himself and others that just doesn t seem to register. It's a pattern visible again and again. Is it ruthless honesty that dazzles Charles? Or only ruthlessness? The stern cool feel of being Charles Platt, lone genius amid a world of buffoons? I can only sympathize I ve been a lone genius in a world of buffoons all my life, and phew, man -- it s tough 5. In any case: the most recent victim to fall under the bludgeon is Mr. Robert Ettinger, who foolishly attempted to update newcomers a bit regarding vitrification. Mr Platt lost no time: I complained here recently about lack of information, but this may not be the most pernicious problem. Misinformation is worse. From Robert Ettinger: [blah blah blah] , To dismiss the relevance of the experiment on this basis, and then suggest that any conclusions based on it are "guesswork," is grossly and, I suggest, intentionally misleading. It is an implied slur against the scientists who did it and the organization which is now using the principles on cryopatients. It suggests the worst kind of professional jealousy, etc. We ve been treated to three days of this now, I believe. Some highlights: Platt: This para (sic) implies that CI has used precisely the same compounds and procedures as described by the quoted patent. I believe this implication is false. Score one for Mr. Platt. it is false. CI can t use the same compounds and procedures as Alcor and 21CM. No one but Alcor and 21CM knows what they are, and they ain t talking. Charles doesn t know what they are either. But we do know that they re something mighty fine, by gum. Charles Platt says so! Platt: Also, while he implies that Harris and Russell are still employed by 21CM, he must surely know that they are not. He must? Do people at 21CM regularly forward notices of their employment status to Robert Ettinger now? Is CI a temp agency now? Platt: A naive reader might conclude from Ettinger's post that he has conducted a fair assessment of the work in question, and is waiting wisely to see whether it is up to the high standards of The Cryonics Institute, while others rush ahead without proper evidence of efficacy. I find this apparently deliberate distortion of the truth extremely offensive. I, a corrupt wretch, conclude from Ettinger's post that he has indeed conducted a fair (indeed the *only* sustained critical) assessment of the work in question, and is in fact waiting wisely for more information to see whether it is up to the high standards of The Cryonics Institute, while others are indeed rush ahead without proper evidence of efficacy. I find this apparently deliberate attempt to portray any sort of reasoned disagreement or questioning as deliberate distortion on Mr. Ettinger s part extremely -- well, kind of amusing, really. (I confess it s kind of a treat to have Charles back ranting. His points are transparently absurd, but he gets so bug-eyed and apoplectic about it that you have to chuckle. I hope Mike Darwin or someone out there somewhere is rubbing his temples. The guy's blood pressure must be astronomical.) Platt: A couple of years ago, Darwin and others offered to GIVE CI some basic monitoring equipment, the only proviso being that CI personnel should be trained in its use. This gift was refused. The 'only proviso'? Of all the misstatements lodged by Mr. Platt, this surely is the very feeblest. Suppose that Robert Ettinger had called up Charles Platt back when Charles was piloting CryoCare towards prosperity and said, Chuck? Bob here. Listen, Chuck old man: CI has done a number of tests and we ve found out that test number such and such has produced results that are really boffo! Why don t you and those outdated BPI dudes dump your own protocols and practices and equipment and other old whatnot and have our team stroll over to your place and tell your people how it s *really* done? I think it is fair to say that Mr. Platt would (a) regard Mr. Ettinger as having popped his cork, and (b) say no. Possibly at colorful length. A foolish reply! For if Mr. Ettinger were half the Machiavellian Charles has played him up to be, what better move could he have made? One makes an offer with a catch that one is reasonably sure won t be accepted, and then one gets to both keep the equipment and bash the victim of one s generosity ad infinitum. (Did I say 'a catch'? What Mr. Platt fails to point out is that the Cryonics Institute said to the intermediary making this offer that CI was happy to take any donations, including donated equipment, and any written suggestions for its use, and any training consultation by phone or email; no, CI had no problem with off-site training. What it did have a problem with was letting one particular individual of that training team, publicly reported to be considered unstable by the Alcor staff, enter patient facilities to do as he please. Having made that one simple, surely not unreasonable condition, the gift was not then refused the offer was withdrawn. However on behalf of CI, and in the interests of keeping Charles from laboring yet another absurd contention to death -- I hereby notify Mr. Platt that, with this one qualification, CI is still waiting and would still be more than happy to take him up on this generous offer. You have CI s address, right, Charles? Call Fed Ex and wrap it up. Platt: you are well aware that companies can be blocked from using the results of research, because (as I understand it) this is precisely what you attempted to do yourself, when CI and Alcor paid a total of $50,000 to Olga Visser for an EXCLUSIVE license to her rat-heart resuscitating wonder-drug . Oh dear. There he goes, using caps and shouting again. And here I was not aware that Olga Visser was only selling her formula to organizations pledging to hand it out to other folks for free. My mistake. Do we hear similar exhortations from Charles for Alcor and BioTransport and 21CM to hand over its formulae to CI and ACS and, hey, anyone who asks? No. Platt: I have yet to see Robert Ettinger attend a presentation by 21CM or Critical Care Research. On one occasion, he actually left the conference hall rather than listen to a progress report. And this is the man who now claims to be providing an authoritative, balanced overview? I think the man who founded the cryonics movement, and who has been exposed to every development, assertion, claim, triumph, failure, and downright lie since its inception is precisely the man to offer an authoritative, balanced overview. My God, who *else* will? Charles? Robert Ettinger and Paul Wakfer are the only two people in cryonics with sufficient guts to express some reasonable reservations as opposed to promotional cheerleading. And what happens? Robert Ettinger is personally trashed and Paul Wakfer's remarks are ignored. Can any readers seriously consider Charles Platt's howls of execration as an 'authoritative and balanced overview'? As far as visiting 21CM and CCR conferences, why Robert Ettinger should trot down to CCR to hear people drone on at podiums when he can get and go over detailed reports in greater depth and understanding at home or online escapes me. Can people learn absolutely nothing by reading? Strange position for a journalist. But what is there to learn when one reads passages like the above, where Charles informs us both that Robert Ettinger did not show up, *and* that he nonetheless left the hall! This is Wired journalism at its finest. One is sorry to have to get serious when such comedy abounds, but really what Mr. Platt has been saying, over and over, is that Mr. Ettinger is deliberately, maliciously lying and falsifying facts. This comment is simply not called for. Great as Mr. Platt s gifts are, mind-reading is not one of them. He does not know what Mr. Ettinger s motivations or intentions are. To pretend that he does, and to announce to the world that they are cheap and malevolent, is precisely the sort of thing that itself cheapens and degrades discourse on Cryonet. Charges like this wouldn't be called for even if they were true! Roughly 2600 years ago, Aristotle nailed down what he called the argumentam ad hominem . This is a way of arguing that avoids the issue by making an issue out of one s opponent s motivations. If Mr. Ettinger says, It is raining, for instance, I expect Mr. Platt would instantaneously bark in reply: You re just saying that because the Cryonics Institute is secretly manufacturing umbrellas and you just want our money! Whether Mr. Ettinger is in the umbrella business or not is irrelevant. Either it s raining or it isn t, and the way to find out is not to bawl out Mr. Ettinger for his intrinsic personal vileness, but to stick your head out the window and see whether or not it gets wet. Only the facts count, the ideas, not the personalities. We should never attack other people personally, because when we do, (a) it distracts us from the issue in question -- which is usually why it s used, (b) it makes the attacker, not the victim, look bad, and (c) personal attacks tend to get responded to in kind, and end up dragging other people into it as well, thus producing ill feelings all around and polluting the whole scene till there s nothing left but a childish free-for-all. I mean -- haven t we *all* got better things to do than this? 7. To conclude (yes, Reader, I'm taking my own advice; you can go back to that Star Trek rerun now, and thank you for putting up with me this long), no one has really responded to Charles central contention, that cryonics is stagnant, moribund, and in general ready (like Charles himself) to leap into the grave. Baloney. Charles is like some great Prosecuting Attorney. Balefully he stalks into the courtroom, glaring at the foredoomed plaintiff with divine contempt. He faces the jury and with soaring eloquence enumerates every last conceivable fact, rumor, implication, and fancy that can send the poor boob in the dock to the rope. There are no qualifying circumstances, no benign interpretations, no benefit of the doubt -- to the hangman, go! A corrosive picture of general malfeasance is built up, and indeed not all the parts of the assault are flatly incorrect, and yet -- and yet the completed picture is utterly false. The cryonics movement is stagnant -- on its last legs -- doomed -- the providers are liars, dolts, shekel-grasping ogres -- the members dupes -- the patients probably thawed already -- only one man of sense stands alone amidst a sea of drooling clods with a message of sense and sanity the sterling example of Charles Platt with his valiant cry: Better cremation than one-pass! It s a ludicrous picture, but not as ludicrous as the reality. Friends: the state of cryonics has never been better. Developments and improvements in vitrification are continuing, and developments in nanotechnology are all but exploding. Membership in CI has all but doubled, and membership in Alcor has been rising too. Thanks to the web we have world-wide exposure. We have more funds, more people, more services, more credibility, than we ve ever had. Is everything perfect? Everything will never be perfect. Yes, we only have a thousand members worldwide but among those thousand members are some of the best known and respected scientists in the world; we have doctors, researchers, financiers, best-selling authors, we have multimillion-dollar organizations caring for patients, and growing in assets and members. Where did it all come from? The man of whom we sit around saying *nothing* as he takes pot shot after shabby pot shot Robert Ettinger. Robert Ettinger was not there *at* the beginning of the cryonics movement. He *was* the beginning of the cryonics movement. Without him there might very well be no CI, no Alcor, no 21CM, no vitrification, no cryonics. But thanks to him, and thanks to his strength in holding up his idea in the face of decades of such denigration and ignorance, we ve finally reached the point where the scientific world is beginning to acknowledge that what we re trying to achieve for ourselves for mankind is actually possible, actually within our grasp. Moribund ? Rubbish. We are here, we are here to stay, and the wind is at our back. Our cause is just, and our success inevitable. That is the state of the cryonics movement. David Pascal http://www.cryonics.org (P.S. On finishing this letter, I opened up my email, and sure enough, there was Charles Platt, for the tenth time in twelve days, making the same charge for the fourth or fifth time in the same period, but at long last coming out of the closet with a few details, to wit: >> CryoCare Report #4. This contains a report of a comparative study, in which some dog brains were perfused using the best-available glycerol-based protocol at that time, while others were perfused using a "simplified" protocol. Although the text doesn't say so (because we were trying to be nonconfrontational and polite, believe it or not), the "simplified" protocol was based on reports from CI of their work using sheep brains. In other words, the purpose of the research by Darwin, Harris, and others was to find out whether CI protocol produced results comparable to the more sophisticated protocol. Very high-quality reproductions of electron micrographs are included, with principal features (good and bad) annotated. You don't have to be a brain surgeon to interpret these pictures. For instance an ice hole, where all brain tissue has been displaced, shredded, and/or mangled, is pretty damned obvious.<< Ah, yes Darwin. He s that fellow who said publicly that the chances of anyone using the most advanced techniques available (his own, naturally) had zero chance of revival. How nice of him to include CI protocols along with his own and all the rest. Yes, we don t need to look at the reports of a cryobiologist or university researchers on CI s actual protocols much better to concoct your own malformed version and then evaluate it yourself too. I suppose that if CI slapped together a caricature of whatever vitrification protocols competing organizations might or might not have out there, then gave this fantasy version a test and got poor results, Charles would clap us on the back and proclaim to the world that vitrification too is 'damned obvious' junk. Or perhaps not? I thank Mr. Platt for giving us his second-hand interpretation of this quite unbiased researcher s best-guess simulation of imaginary CI protocols that were never applied by CI and are not being applied now. I am particularly grateful to Charles for being rude and confrontational enough to make it public the nonconfrontational and polite decision to hide it did not keep it from being passed along to me (in gory and inaccurate detail) via email during my first days as a CI member. I can t help but wonder how many other people who were also exposed to this laughable tripe privately simply believed it, were dissuaded from signing up, and are now irrevocably dead? Well, maybe those still surviving will look at it, and CI, in a somewhat different light now, as I did. No you don t have to be a brain surgeon to see what s going on. You only need a brain. >>My personal opinion (which has been stated many times before) is that any patient who is cryopreserved using standard CI procedures is unlikely to emerge from storage, under any circumstances, ever.<< Again, I would like to thank Charles Platt, who is neither a doctor, cryobiologist, nanotechnologist, nor psychic, for repeating for the hundredth time his unpredjudiced layman s views on the eternal limitations of medical science. People who, by contrast, would like to review differing but qualified opinions related to this topic may read Dr. Yuri Pichugin s reports at http://www.cryonics.org/research2.html and http://www.cryonics.org/research3.html, Dr.Greg Fahy s testimony at http://www.cryonics.org/fahy.html , Dr. Ralph Merkle s study at http://www.merkle.com/merkleDir/techFeas.html, Dr. Eric Drexler s remarks on biostasis at http://www.foresight.org/EOC, and (not least) Robert Freitas Nanomedicine site at http://www.nanomedicine.com. And, of course, the most informative cryonics web site on the net: http://www.cryonics.org. Happy reading, gang! Rate This Message: http://www.cryonet.org/cgi-bin/rate.cgi?msg=15287