X-Message-Number: 15467
From: "ramzy ramzy" <>
Subject: cryonics and Moslems
Date: Sun, 28 Jan 2001 16:15:34 -0000

Hi for all,
I will introduce this part from a message for me to Ben Best because it is 
useful if someone want to discuss a non-cryonicist Moslem (person or 
family).
The text:
There is a real problem if you apply your discussions with non-cryonicists 
from the west on non-cryonicists from the east. By other meaning, the 
problem in the west:
How do you make the non-cryonicists accept that: the clinical death is not 
real death?
It is not the problem here. There are many non-cryonicists here who are sure 
that the clinical death is not real death. The problem in the east:
How do you make the non-cryonicists accept that: stop of every biological 
activity in the body during the cryopreservation is not real death?
Perhaps, you say that it is easy. you will say (All cryonicists believe that 
their cryopreserved remains could possibly contain enough information to 
lead to eventual reanimation.) Then they say that stop of every activity 
refers to the life means also that the soul went away with regarding of the 
good health of the brain or the whole body.
Perhaps, you say that what about stop of heart and comma? OK. Kuran talked 
about that some believers escaped to a cave and slept for three centuries 
(soura 18 - ayas 9-25), but the non-cryonicists can say that all does not 
equal cryopreservation because the sleep does not mean stop of every 
biochemical reaction in the body.
Note: The Holy book for Moslems (Kuran) is divided to sections (everyone is 
soura). These sections are divided to partial sections (everyone is aya).
How can I discuss them? There are two principal methods:
1- Discussions about banks store the Human embryos in so low temperatures. 
It means that stop of everything in the embryo body. If it is right in one 
organism, then there is no religious reason for refusing. What is the 
reaction?
The some do not believe me in the first and say that perhaps there is 
something still work. Then, I say that if there is something still works, 
then why the age (few hours) is stopped also and waited to the melting after 
few years if we consider that age of the Human do not start from going out 
from mother body after 9 months but starts after diffusion of chromosomes of 
mother and father.
Others know without doubt, but he can say that the soul did not inter the 
embryo body yet because the embryo has small age.
Other discover that he know, but he did not think in reanimation of embryos 
from before, so he says that he can not answer or find appropriate 
interpretation now.
I discussed a brave atheist with proof of frozen embryos, but he refused 
because it is not enough proof for next success for frozen adult.
I discussed a real Moslem with the same proof, then he suggested the 
neuro-option instead of the whole body. I told him: it is available also.
2- Discussions about: two positions in the Kuran (soura 6 - aya 60) - (soura 
39 - aya 42). Some Moslems did not read them except if you told him to open 
the Kuran.
The two positions speak about two kinds from the wafa at sleep and death (it 
equals nearly getting my thing or my right). Specially, God makes wafa, then 
he get souls of people because he is the owner.
a) (soura 39 - aya 42): (God makes wafa for selves at its death and wafa for 
the selves which were not died at sleep, then he keeps the selves which the 
death is its current end and let the other for other time. These ayas for 
who think.)
b) (soura 6 - aya 60): (God makes wafa for yours in the night and he know 
what you did in the morning and resurrect them in it to spend certain time 
and in the end you return to him to tell what we did.)
Notes:
* the word (resurrect a person) in Arabic must be used for only the died, 
but it is used for sleepers here to show that the sleep looks like the 
death.
** The difference between self and soul have different opinions: soul and 
self are the same or self is a result of diffusion of soul and body.
In the end, we concluded that the sleep is nearer to the death more than the 
life. Also, this does not mean that there is no other wafa. For example, 
swooning and now comma in the new times. All are nearer to the death more 
than the sleep and the life. Then, I can say that when you awake the 
sleeper, you do not say that how the soul return from other world at God to 
the body, so it is right for the reanimation after cryopreservation.
But in Kuran, there are points do not support you also. How?
In the west, the cryonicists look for the revival in other time when problem 
of aging is solved, then they can live for longer time. The Islam considered 
that the aging problem is unsolved forever as in talk of God in (soura 36 - 
aya 68):
(The person who I give a long life, I make him weaker. Do you have a logic?)
Then, you must avoid the talk about solving of aging problem and replace it 
by the waited good life through the advanced technology when the person 
travels to the future and gets ride of many diseases. If you talked about 
the aging, then you must say that we only try to delay the aging (no 
removing of aging). Also Noah live for 950 years before the deluge and live 
after it also (soura 29 - ayas 14 and15).
4- You wrote: I would like to hear some examples of the physical side of 
cryobiology
that holds your interest.
Sorry, I can not write the references about volumetric changes, 
crystallization and heat conduction in this message because the message is 
very long. I hope that the other parts are good.
Ramzy
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