X-Message-Number: 15514
From: "John de Rivaz" <>
Subject: Cryonics is our back up 
Date: Thu, 1 Feb 2001 15:38:49 -0000

----- Original Message -----
From: Kitty Antonik Wakfer <>
> I can only add that so do I and Paul (and I presume Mr Grimes) want to
> save our lives and those whom we love.  We personally are constantly
> researching and practicing the best scientifically based life extension
> methods.  Cryonics is our back up in case we do not live to the point in
> time where rejuvenation techniques are discovered, proven and
> available.  I want a cryonics organization based solidly on science that
> I can verify and with a financial footing that is sound.  From Mr
> Grimes' questions/comments, it sounds like he is searching for the
> same.  I can't help wondering how many lurkers have wondered similarly.

My wife and I (and friends who have signed with CI) feel the same.
Unfortunately something that is regulated to the standards of the medical
profession would be unattainable and unaffordable at this time, and doesn't
exist anyway. Verification is impossible without a time machine so that
patients reanimated in the future could give us a report. I beleive your
husband is a physicist - maybe he could come up with a verifiable method by
which information could be transmitted to the past. :-)

Not that the standard of the medical profession are that good:
 - lorry drivers would be breaking the law if they worked the hours hospital
staff are made to work.
 - airlines would have deaths equivalent to a jumbo crash almost every week
if their safety results were the same as hospitals. (Sorry I recall this
from a TV program, but even if it was once a year the airlines would still
come out better)


>  I have  witnessed many patients and family querying physcians, nurses,
> therapists, etc. for extensive details.

Are patients often aggressive in their questioning? (This is a genuine
question, not an attempt to make a point.) If yes, how do the physicians and
surgeons handle it?


> While Mr Grimes has been very polite, in my opinion,

I think his desire for conscise information is genuine enough, but I think
his frustration has shown through in his language from time to time, and he
has lead the tone of the debate.

> he has been very
> persistent in his attempt to get clear specific answers.  Maybe this is
> what is so heavily disliked by Mr Ettinger, Mr Pascal, Mr de Rivas, and
> Mr Smith.

I am willing to give him the benefit of the doubt. I think what is really
needed is a more precise method of correalating the information required and
produced by what has become a rather acrimonius argument. CI is using this
as a method of clarifying its web site, which is all to the good as many
professionals comming across it may feel as aggressive as Mr Grimes.

I have noticed that people in the descriptive sciences tend to be quite
aggressive and have little time for people who get even one long word wong.
This may well be why many non-cryonicists in cryobiology refuse to even
discuss cryonics rationally. The "hamburger into a cow" statement is clearly
irrational, yet it gets quoted again and again by professionals. They know
it is irrational - it is really just as much a put down as shouting obscene
language at someone.

I remember as a school child asking someone how to convert wave length of
radio waves into frequency - the trouble was I asked a biology teacher I
happened to be talking to. Instead of asking the question properly, I asked
"how do you convert kilocycles into metres". Instead of being told how to
convert wavelength to frequency, I got a load of rubbish about "I suppose as
well you want to convert <feet> into <watts> and so on" (can't remember what
the incompatible units were, but you must get the gist of what happened.) I
never did get the answer to the question from this teacher - I suppose he
probably didn't know really and was just blustering rather than say so.

Sincerely, John de Rivaz
my homepage links to Longevity Report, Fractal Report, music, Inventors'
report, an autobio and various other projects:
http://www.autopsychoice.com - should you be able to chose autopsy?

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