X-Message-Number: 15772 Date: Thu, 01 Mar 2001 11:56:29 +0000 From: "Joseph Kehoe" <> Subject: [off topic] Luddites The following is off topic and not directly related to cryonics. It is a response to a previous post regarding "luddites". Skip if you are not interested. ************************************************************** Hi, Read with interest the reason report on the "neo-luddites". I agree with some of the report but not all. I have found that some (many) scientists can be condescending in their attitudes to non-scientists when they are debating with them. Many give an impression that non-scientists have no right to question them and treat them (the public) like children. In debates this really goes down well! I am not a luddite by any means but it is wrong to treat people who disagree with our views as if they are ill-informed unintelligent people. They are correct on a number of points: 1. Genetically modified organisms ARE part of the biggest experiment ever run on the planet. Whether you agree or disagree with bio-engineering - releasing them into the wild (at this early stage) is very risky. Maybe they will have no ill effects but if they do once they are "in the wild" we will be unable to bring them back in. If you are willing to take that chance then fine but you cannot dismiss other people who do not want to take that chance - the outcome will affect them as much as you. 2. Large multinationals ARE using these technologies wrongly. It is just plain wrong that a company can patent one of my genes. It is also wrong that they be allowed to patent plant genes. In the real world companies are patenting genes so they can get a monopoly on certain markets. No longer will farmers be allowed to grow their own seed. If you want to grow wheat you have to pay royalties to some company. If you live in India and grow, say rice, you will not be allowed to grow your own from seed - so you will be further in debt. - More money for the rich less for the poor. Terminater genes have already been developed that when placed in seed will stop them from germinating and producing more seed. Companies will own the food chain!!! If you do not believe this then check out what is happening in the American mid-west. Private detectives are investigating farmers to ensure the grain they grow does not contain a certain companies patented gene. If it does they are sued. Now if your neigbhour grows that gene-specific crop then an amount of it will cross to your fields so you are in trouble! This also disallows farmers from growing their own seed! Take the example of the outcry in Britian over the gene tests. The genetically modified plants there were modified to be resistant to the weedkiller Roundup (I think the name is correct). The company developing these plants also owns RoundUp (spot the connection) This will alow plants to be sprayed with weedkiller much more often. Result : a) Greater sales of roundup b) More weedkiller in the environment c) wash your veges very carefully before eating them to remove the traces of weedkiller Effect on the poor in the third world none, they cannot afford roundup Genes as profit centres! 3. Techno-heaven as an excuse for anything. I think nanotech is inevitable and am looking forward to the good consequences. But it should not be used as an excuse for doing wrong. Sure oil will destroy the ecosystem, sure whales (or snails or whatever) are becoming extinct but as soon as we have nano we will put them back! There are two problems with this argument a) Nano will never be able to replace ecosystems we simply do not have enough of the (any) ecosystem in storage to replace it therefore only highly depleted versions (approx. 1-5%) could ever be brought back and these will not work (ask any ecologist) b) It is a form of the ends justify the means argument. With or without nano it is wrong to cause pain to sentient organisms if it can be avoided. It can be avoided so it should be! * Progress is good but not when it becomes the property of a few faceless companies who use it only for profit. * Genes are not property. * Some advances do actually have bad effects. We are part of the privileged few on this planet (in the universe perhaps?) who live in luxury. We should ensure that all advances are used for the general good not for profit. Poverty, slavery, war and sickness occur more now than at any time in the past. It is just that we moved them all to the southern hemisphere so we would not be reminded of them when we drive around in our luxury cars. How many people were given the education to allow them to decide about cryonics? How many people have the money to afford it? We should be open to the arguments put forward by these "luddites". They are not all fools and they are sometimes correct. I think you will find that the majority of them are not actually against progress just how it is being used. If nano is the revolution we think it will be then ethics are more important now than ever. Joseph. If I am incorrect in any of the above arguments then feel free to let me know. The following do not count as counter arguments: 1. You are a luddite. I am not and even if I was - attack the argument not the arguer! 2. You are a hypocrite Maybe but how does that change the argument? If we could shrink the earth's population to a village of precisely 100 people, with all the existing human ratios remaining the same, it would read something like the following: There would be: 57 Asians 21 Europeans 14 from the Western Hemisphere, both north and south 8 Africans 52 would be female 48 would be male 70 would be non-white 30 would be white 70 would be non-Christian 30 would be Christian 89 would be heterosexual 11 would be homosexual 6 people would possess 59% of the entire world's wealth and all 6 would be from the United States. 80 would live in substandard housing 70 would be unable to read 50 would suffer from malnutrition 1 would be near death; 1 would be near birth 1 (yes, only 1) would have a college education 1 would own a computer ********************************************************** Rate This Message: http://www.cryonet.org/cgi-bin/rate.cgi?msg=15772