X-Message-Number: 16042 From: "john grigg" <> Subject: cryonics and religion Date: Wed, 11 Apr 2001 23:03:06 Hello everyone!, Olaf wrote: it is just a matter of scale. 10,000 years are just a blink of an eye, in the history of the universe for those of us, who are atheists and in God's time for the theists. I have not heard of any religious dogma, which commands the believers to limit their time on earth to a certain number of years. (end) The Bible does I believe say after the flood God cut the lifespan of humans from centuries to generally seventy years. It is explained that this was done so man would not have so much time to procrastinate the day of his repentance. I don't know if this is approach from God is working as hoped! This does not forbid cryonics but does seem to indicate God was trying to get AWAY from longer lifespans for us. lol Of course, cryonics was unknown to them, though the Egyptians would have given their eyeteeth to have the options we do! :) From: Date: Sun, 8 Apr 2001 05:01:49 EDT Subject: Re: CryoNet #16008 God vs cryonics << That's why I'm resolved to respect her wishes, and to love her to the fullest extent possible for the time we have together. (Which is a long time, we're both in our thirties!) I'd love to hear anyone else's thoughts on the list. Yvan wrote: First, how long you expect to live? Assume you are frozen and some day you get out in a world where nearly all biological problems have been solved. If that was done today, you could live for 3000 years or so. (end) Was it Joe Hovey who did a fascinating study which said based on current statistics we could expect to live only about 1,500 years due to the unsafe nature of our present world? Yvan continues: In that time span, you would have a 50 percent probability to fall the prey of the most common man's predator: The Car. (end) LOL!!! That's right folks, "the car" is man's greatest predator! I know they scare me! lol The sometimes idiot humans controlling them also happen to be a part of the problem... All the refined and fatty foods we eat as a pathetic attempt at a diet is the real number one predator. But, instead of it eating us, we eat it! And then we clog up and die of a coronary or have our cells turn against us. Yvan continues: You would be very lucky to live for 10,000 years or so. Beyond that, you could be uploaded in an information processing system... This is out of the realm of basic cryonics, so I don't comment more on it here. (end) You sure would be damn lucky to live that long! But, I think with the advent of a indefinite lifespan society we will see things changed to make life MUCH safer so we can live LONG periods of time. Hopefully we just won't go nuts about it like the alien puppeteers in the Ringworld novels... Uploading out of the realm of basic cryonics? Surely, you jest Yvan! :) Why, nothing is beyond cryonics once transhumanists get their hands and minds on it. Don't you want to be uploaded and eventually become a godlike jupiter brain? I thought everyone here did... Yvan continues: So, your time horizon is somewhere between 1 000 and 10 000 years with cryonics. (end) Not too shabby! Yvan continues: Now, assume you are religious and hope God will bring you to life at the end of times. From the hard knowledge of the Universe, the end of time(s) can come only in a cosmological "big crunch". This is possible only if a big mass enter our cosmological horizon (we see it today at 16 billions light years or so) . The smoothness or the horizon forbids a big crunch before at least one billion of billion of years. This is the minimum time the Universe such we see it will endure. So, at the minimum, God ask us to wait for that duration. Whatever you may think about God, why not take a very small slice of life with cryonics, after all, 10^4 years is nearly nothing against 10^18 years to wait for God. (end) I think you are confusing astronomical terms with theological ones. The end of times in Christian evangelical interpretation is when the tribulations are poured out upon a wicked Earth which will culminate in the first resurrection of the righteous and the second coming of Jesus Christ with the establishment of his rule over a mortal earth for a thousand years. After that time the earth will be glorified(resurrected) and become a dwelling place for God and only righteous glorified (resurrected) beings. "Soul sleep" is not a mainstream Christian doctrine. Most believe at death we continue awareness as disembodied spirits. Through resurrection the spirit is clothed again in the flesh, but this time it is glorified and immortal. And so we would not need to wait till the end/transformation of the physical universe. Yvan continues: Frankly, I don't understand why to bother with something as the God idea: Billion of billions of years is too much for my understanding. (end) I already explained this but I must say some time differences don't bother theologians, believers or extropians who have plans to restructure the whole dang universe in that time! John de Rivaz wrote: If a religious person is cryopreserved because they don't trust their god or other beliefs, then yes this could be wrong unless they have decided to relinquish these beliefs. But the same could be said of any life-saving treatment. (end) So, God looks into our hearts to find our motive! What if we have mixed motives? Christ did love Thomas despite his doubts... Maybe I should start a cryonics group for believers called the "slightly doubting Thomas's!" When we finally all get to Heaven(hopefully) we can visit with the man who inspired us. Or during the millennial reign of Christ he could come and see us! John continues: But if they are cryopreserved because of any or all of the following, then logically there can be nothing wrong: (end) But, just with the purest heart and motives! lol he states: 1. Life is a wonderful gift and I want to show gratitude by looking after it. (end) But, to the extreme of cryonics? Many would say it is showing a lack of faith. If it were only presently reversible then it could be seen as a crucial technique of lifesaving technology to save lives. I know... nano, nano, nano! he states: 2. Jesus (and a lot of other religious founders) went around healing the sick and raising those given up for dead. Jesus has asked his followers to do the same in his name. (end) Yes, but by using the power of God through the exercise of faith. There is a difference here. he states: 3. I have not done very well so far in this life and I want to learn more about this wonderful universe. (or about God, or about whatever) (end) This is exactly how I feel! My life due to learning disabilities, my father's abandonment, etc. has not given me in my view a fair shake. But, that is true of so many. And life and the universe is so incredibly amazing. I don't want to live forever in this life, but a thousand years would be nice. he states: 4. Suicide by neglect is a sin. The fact that cryonics has appeared in my life is a sign from God that he wants me to live longer in order help those doing his work. [Remember that if God is omnipotent, nothing will appear in your life that he doesn't want to. You could say that it is a temptation, but if this is so, how does it differ from any other medical treatment? Jesus chose a physician as one of his disciples, so at least the Christian God wasn't against medicine.] (end) But again, aging is seen as part of God's plan for our lives by many. He gives us enough lifespan to grow, learn, marry, raise children and then in time deteriorate and die. Even the weakening of our bodies is seen by many Christians as a way God develops our characters for eternity. he states: >Can anyone think of others to add to this list? Yes, I would say be suspended so when they bring you back you can go around raising heck about how the whole world has gone to hell in a handbasket! For instance, you go to your old denomination where they ask you if participation in the sunday school orgy interests you... You can then fly into a rage and act like an old testament prophet! It would be explained to you that they are actually conservative and only card carrying members of the congregation who are seen as right in their hearts can participate unlike other churches which invite just anyone... Scott Badger wrote: Anyway, I just wondered how Christians deal with the paradoxical prospect of indefinitely extended life spans. (end) I think it both depends on the particular church and the Christian! lol Christian theology, doctrine and practice will have quite a challenge to deal with this but it will be dealt with in various rather differing ways I expect. I think most Christians would embrace it knowing that even with indefinite lifespan death can always be around the corner. When Brother so-and-so dies in a freak flyer accident people will probably say, "God felt it was his time." Some very radical Christians will simply decide to utterly reject it and let the world see them age and die. It will be quite an act of defiance to a culture sure to embrace immortalism. David Pizer has shared: The Venturists are going to be building a cryonics community. Look for more imformation early in 2002. For now all we can say is that it is going to be built; permission for zoning has been approved and funding is in place; plans are being drawn as we speak. The first phase will be a resort for temporary visits to Arizona, and for conferences. Then in a couple more years, on property near the resort will be homes for cryonicists to live full time. So, in a couple of years, there will be a place for cryonicists to come and live among other like-minded cryonics-folks. Together we can all try to make a difference in the world. (end) GREAT NEWS!!! This, the Alcor three-year improvement plan and the timeship will put cryonics where it belongs! :) my best wishes to everyone, John P.S. I renewed contact with a nice girl and have a chance at a cool tourism job so I may be having a great summer! Time will tell... _________________________________________________________________ Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com Rate This Message: http://www.cryonet.org/cgi-bin/rate.cgi?msg=16042