X-Message-Number: 16042
From: "john grigg" <>
Subject: cryonics and religion
Date: Wed, 11 Apr 2001 23:03:06 

Hello everyone!,

Olaf wrote:
it is just a matter of scale.  10,000 years are just a blink of
an eye, in the history of the universe for those of us, who are
atheists and in God's time for the theists.  I have not heard of
any religious dogma, which commands the believers to limit their
time on earth to a certain number of years.

The Bible does I believe say after the flood God cut the lifespan of humans 
from centuries to generally seventy years.  It is explained that this was 
done so man would not have so much time to procrastinate the day of his 
repentance.  I don't know if this is approach from God is working as hoped!

This does not forbid cryonics but does seem to indicate God was trying to 
get AWAY from longer lifespans for us. lol  Of course, cryonics was unknown 
to them, though the Egyptians would have given their eyeteeth to have the 
options we do! :)

Date: Sun, 8 Apr 2001 05:01:49 EDT
Subject: Re: CryoNet #16008 God vs cryonics

That's why I'm resolved to respect her wishes, and to love her to the
fullest extent possible for the time we have together.  (Which is a long
time, we're both in our thirties!)  I'd love to hear anyone else's thoughts
on the list.

Yvan wrote:
First, how long you expect to live?  Assume you are frozen and some day you 
get out in a world where nearly all biological problems have been solved. If 
that was done today, you could live for 3000 years or so.

Was it Joe Hovey who did a fascinating study which said based on current 
statistics we could expect to live only about 1,500 years due to the unsafe 
nature of our present world?

Yvan continues:
In that time span, you would have a 50 percent probability to fall the prey 
of the most common man's predator: The Car.

LOL!!!  That's right folks, "the car" is man's greatest predator!  I know 
they scare me! lol  The sometimes idiot humans controlling them also happen 
to be a part of the problem...

All the refined and fatty foods we eat as a pathetic attempt at a diet  is 
the real number one predator.  But, instead of it eating us, we eat it!  And 
then we clog up and die of a coronary or have our cells turn against us.

Yvan continues:
You would be very lucky to live for 10,000 years or so. Beyond that, you 
could be uploaded in an information processing system...  This is out of the 
realm of basic cryonics, so I don't comment more on it

You sure would be damn lucky to live that long!  But, I think with the 
advent of a indefinite lifespan society we will see things changed to make 
life MUCH safer so we can live LONG periods of time.  Hopefully we just 
won't go nuts about it like the alien puppeteers in the Ringworld novels...

Uploading out of the realm of basic cryonics?  Surely, you jest Yvan! :)  
Why, nothing is beyond cryonics once transhumanists get their hands and 
minds on it.  Don't you want to be uploaded and eventually become a godlike 
jupiter brain?  I thought everyone here did...

Yvan continues:
So, your time horizon is somewhere between 1 000 and 10 000 years with

Not too shabby!

Yvan continues:
Now, assume you are religious and hope God will bring you to life at the end 
of times. From the hard knowledge of the Universe, the end of time(s) can 
come only in a cosmological "big crunch". This is possible only if a big 
mass enter our cosmological horizon (we see it today at 16 billions light 
years or so) . The smoothness or the horizon forbids a big crunch before at 
least one billion of billion of years. This is the minimum time the Universe 
such we see it will endure. So, at the minimum, God ask us to wait for that 
duration.  Whatever you may think about God, why not take a very small slice 
of life with cryonics, after all, 10^4 years is nearly nothing against 10^18 
years to wait for God.

I think you are confusing astronomical terms with theological ones.  The end 
of times in Christian evangelical interpretation is when the tribulations 
are poured out upon a wicked Earth which will culminate in the first 
resurrection of the righteous and the second coming of Jesus Christ with the 
establishment of his rule over a mortal earth for a thousand years.  After 
that time the earth will be glorified(resurrected) and become a dwelling 
place for God and only righteous glorified (resurrected) beings.

"Soul sleep" is not a mainstream Christian doctrine.  Most believe at death 
we continue awareness as disembodied spirits.  Through resurrection the 
spirit is clothed again in the flesh, but this time it is glorified and 
immortal.  And so we would not need to wait till the end/transformation of 
the physical universe.

Yvan continues:
Frankly, I don't understand why to bother with something as the God idea: 
Billion of billions of years is too much for my understanding.

I already explained this but I must say some time differences don't bother 
theologians, believers or extropians who have plans to restructure the whole 
dang universe in that time!

John de Rivaz wrote:
If a religious person is cryopreserved because they don't trust their god or 
other beliefs, then yes this could be wrong unless they have decided to 
relinquish these beliefs. But the same could be said of any life-saving 

So, God looks into our hearts to find our motive!  What if we have mixed 
motives?  Christ did love Thomas despite his doubts...  Maybe I should start 
a cryonics group for believers called the "slightly doubting Thomas's!"  
When we finally all get to Heaven(hopefully) we can visit with the man who 
inspired us.  Or during the millennial reign of Christ he could come and see 

John continues:
But if they are cryopreserved because of any or all of the following, then 
logically there can be nothing wrong:

But, just with the purest heart and motives! lol

he states:
1. Life is a wonderful gift and I want to show gratitude by looking after 

But, to the extreme of cryonics?  Many would say it is showing a lack of 
faith.  If it were only presently reversible then it could be seen as a 
crucial technique of lifesaving technology to save lives.  I know... nano, 
nano, nano!

he states:
2. Jesus (and a lot of other religious founders) went around healing the 
sick and raising those given up for dead. Jesus has asked his followers to 
do the same in his name.

Yes, but by using the power of God through the exercise of faith.  There is 
a difference here.

he states:
3. I have not done very well so far in this life and I want to learn more 
about this wonderful universe. (or about God, or about whatever)

This is exactly how I feel!  My life due to learning disabilities, my 
father's abandonment, etc. has not given me in my view a fair shake.  But, 
that is true of so many.

And life and the universe is so incredibly amazing.  I don't want to live 
forever in this life, but a thousand years would be nice.

he states:
4. Suicide by neglect is a sin. The fact that cryonics has appeared in my 
life is a sign from God that he wants me to live longer in order help those 
doing his work. [Remember that if God is omnipotent, nothing will appear in 
your life that he doesn't want to. You could say that it is a temptation, 
but if this is so, how does it differ from any other medical treatment? 
Jesus chose a physician as one of his disciples, so at least the Christian 
God wasn't against medicine.]

But again, aging is seen as part of God's plan for our lives by many.  He 
gives us enough lifespan to grow, learn, marry, raise children and then in 
time deteriorate and die.  Even the weakening of our bodies is seen by many 
Christians as a way God develops our characters for eternity.

he states:
>Can anyone think of others to add to this list?

Yes, I would say be suspended so when they bring you back you can go around 
raising heck about how the whole world has gone to hell in a handbasket!

For instance, you go to your old denomination where they ask you if 
participation in the sunday school orgy interests you...  You can then fly 
into a rage and act like an old testament prophet!

It would be explained to you that they are actually conservative and only 
card carrying members of the congregation who are seen as right in their 
hearts can participate unlike other churches which invite just anyone...

Scott Badger wrote:
Anyway, I just wondered how Christians deal with the paradoxical prospect of 
indefinitely extended life spans.

I think it both depends on the particular church and the Christian! lol  
Christian theology, doctrine and practice will have quite a challenge to 
deal with this but it will be dealt with in various rather differing ways I 

I think most Christians would embrace it knowing that even with indefinite 
lifespan death can always be around the corner.  When Brother so-and-so dies 
in a freak flyer accident people will probably say, "God felt it was his 

Some very radical Christians will simply decide to utterly reject it and let 
the world see them age and die.  It will be quite an act of defiance to a 
culture sure to embrace immortalism.

David Pizer has shared:
The Venturists are going to be building a cryonics community.   Look for 
more imformation early in 2002.  For now all we can say is that it is going 
to be built; permission for zoning has been approved and funding is in 
place; plans are being drawn as we speak.  The first phase will be a resort 
for temporary visits to Arizona, and for conferences.  Then in a couple more 
years, on property near the resort will be homes for cryonicists to live 
full time.

So, in a couple of years, there will be a place for cryonicists to come and 
live among other like-minded cryonics-folks.  Together we can all try to 
make a difference in the world.

GREAT NEWS!!!  This, the Alcor three-year improvement plan and the timeship 
will put cryonics where it belongs! :)

my best wishes to everyone,


P.S.  I renewed contact with a nice girl and have a chance at a cool tourism 
job so I may be having a great summer!  Time will tell...
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