X-Message-Number: 16337
Date: Fri, 25 May 2001 10:14:41 -0400
From: James Swayze <>
Subject: A little off topic but what is the beef with Seventh Day Adventists?
References: <>
See below comments:
CryoNet wrote:
> CryoNet - Fri 25 May 2001
>
> #16332: Platt Falls Flat / Gene Gets Mean / UK's Stray [davidpascal]
> ----------------------------------------------------------------------
>
> Message #16332
> Date: Fri, 25 May 2001 02:01:37 -0400
> Subject: Platt Falls Flat / Gene Gets Mean / UK's Stray
> From:
David Pascal reminding us of a Charles Platt quote wrote:
> One such expatriate is back, and another one is about to ship off. Mr.
> Charles Platt, refreshed and chipper from his sabbatical, wrote [sic]
"Personally I feel
> that they might just as well join the Seventh Day Adventists." And
> before that -- well, you get the idea.
Here's the actual quote from Cryonet #16191-#16200: "b) Some of them (at least a
dozen) are opting for the Cryonics Institute.
Personally I feel that they might just as well join the Seventh Day Adventists,
since I doubt that many CI patients have much chance of
resuscitation. Obviously, this is just my opinion, but I hold it strongly, and I
deeply regret the loss of these Alcor UK members."
The Adventists are further referred to:
> Vitrification? Yep, we're lookin'
> into that too, folks. Suffice it to say that when you have independent
> tests on your procedures run by PhD's at major universities, and when a
> certified degree-bearing professional cryobiologist trained at the
> largest cryobiological institute in the world is head of your research
> department -- and when you are the *only* cryonics organization that has
> these qualifications -- well, then, I'd say it is a big leap to fairly
> equate the results with the Seventh Day Adventists. But then the key
> word is 'fairly'.
And further referred to:
> If you are
> unhappy with CI protocols, then join CI and work to make them better.
> They're getting better whether you work for them or not, but your dues
> are more likely to help us than your religious metaphors. If you feel a
> plague on both our houses is appropriate, do not plague them personally:
> join Kyros, and build it up, rather than wasting your time in the futile
> attempt to tear us down. And if you don't like Kyros either? Join the
> Seventh Day Adventists. You'll get the same burial you're headed for
> now, but at least there'll be some good Gospel at the wake.
>
> -- David ("Dem Bones / Dem Bones / Gonna Rise!") Pascal
>
David signs off with the suggestion that those wishing to know the actual
positions of various organizations should go to their links, one of which is for
Seventh Day Adventists. Doing so may surprise some folks.
>
> The case for CI can be found at
> http://www.cryonics.org, the case for Alcor at http://www.alcor.org, the
> case for ACS at http://www.acs.org, the case for Kyros by writing Mike
> Darwin at , and the case for Seventh Day Adventists at
> http://www.adventist.org.
>
> Happy reading, and Amen.
>
> ----------------------------------------------------------------------
I don't have a clue why Charles Platt would refer to the Seventh Day Adventists
in mocking fashion to highlight shortcomings he feels CI has. More specifically
I don't know why he would choose to prefer to use this religious organization
over any other as being particularly silly or useless for a way of achieving
immortality and thus useful for mocking
CI but I respectfully submit he hasn't a clue what Seventh Day Adventists truly
are about.
I used to be one. If I could kid myself into still believing in God I would be
Seventh Day Adventist over any other religion. Having studied some about most
other religions and indeed most other Christian based religions I still find
SDA's as the most practical and logical and literal truth following of any
religion in existence. This is of course
assuming the bible had no flaws which now being an atheist I adamantly point out
that it does at every opportunity.
However, had I not been an Adventist once I most probably would not be an
immortalist or extropian or hopeful to be cryonicist. Notice I didn't say I am a
cryonicist. This is because I am not funded nor likely will be any time soon
but that's another issue. First of all Adventists are practicing Life
Extensionists! They were so long before science ever
got the notion to consider it. They were many generations before any of us here
were even born. Second only to their preaching that the seventh day Sabbath of
the ten commandments is Saturday and not Sunday, and they are right--just
consult a calendar, is their health message.
They encourage vegetarianism. They abstain from pork, not just because some part
of the bible suggests it and not also solely because pork once was dangerous
for trichinosis, but for practical--one may even say scientific--reason based on
the fact a pig has just one stomach and therefore the possibility that more
toxins will reach the animals flesh. They
observed the effects of biomagnification (the theory that toxins accumulate and
magnify in effect as food travels up the food chain from smaller beings being
eaten by larger and so on) long before it became a scientific theory. Another
not well known fact is that many Adventists have practiced and preach caloric
restriction long before Walford adopted
the practice.
The founder of the church first promoted a healthful lifestyle in the 1800's
when it was unheard of. She was even instrumental in raising/shortening the
lengths of skirts because she felt it unhealthy to be so fully closed in and
that the skirts of the day dragged in the dirt which was caught up to land upon
the body--this despite the prudish sexual
morality fashions of the day. She promoted healthy breathing techniques and the
opening of windows for fresh air and also bathing in a time full of
superstitious beliefs to the contrary.
Speaking of fresh air and preaching healthy lifestyles how many churches do you
know of that have a 5 day quit smoking program? How many do you know of that
produce and market soy meat substitutes. Guess what, Adventists knew red meat
was not so good for you long before it became mainstream scientific theory!
Politically Adventists unlike ALL other fundamentalist religions strongly
support separation of church and state. In our present time where conservative
christians all around us are clamoring to bring government and religion together
and promoting such things as prayer in school and infiltrating school boards
and government offices with right wing
christian extremists, Adventists stand apart in condescension of such deeds.
They support freedom of speech more than any other fundamentalist group.
Adventists tend to be either liberal or libertarian bent and even those that are
members of the republican party. Regarding issues of legislation that
cryonicists may someday face you can count on that
Adventists will be allies not enemies. They've always supported a persons right
to personal choice over state dictated.
Scientifically Adventists have always been ahead of the crowd where other
fundamentalist religions are concerned and very often ahead of mainstream
science as I have mentioned above. They are not afraid to try unpopular and even
controversial sciences. You all may remember the attempt to transplant a baboon
heart into a human. A failure, yes, but they
didn't shy away from it out of superstition and didn't get detracted by issues
of human versus animal ethical bugaboos. Unlike other fundamentalist religions
biology departments at Adventist colleges and hospitals recognize the Earth is
older than the literal bible interpretation and that evolution defines our
medical theories. Adventists have always
believed we are not alone in the universe and so are not Earth centric.
Theologically speaking Seventh Day Adventists among all christian religions
would be the most accepting of cryonics. They do not believe that one's soul
exists before birth. Unlike many christian religions they do not believe that
the soul upon death immediately goes to heaven. They will point out that in 29
places in the bible the state of the dead is
written as being unconsciousness or sleep, that you "know nothing" and cannot be
contacted or held accountable. They do not believe in contemporary faddish
beliefs of the charismatic fundamentalists such as speaking in tongues or the
rapture nor in secular spiritualism. They do not believe that life after death
is as a bodiless spirit. They don't believe
in ghosts, except for the third being in the trinity the "Holly Ghost". So,
given all this every Adventist I have talked with has no problem with cryonics
agreeing with me that it is no more a usurpation of their god's plan than
cardiac resuscitation and they have no problem with that either. They have all
agreed that if one does come back from cryonic
suspension then one was not truly yet dead.
Out of all christian religions the first to be an ally to cryonics, I would
submit, would be the Seventh Day Adventists. In fact I would encourage the
cryonicists here that have christian spouses and relatives who are not friendly
to cryonics to urge them to become SDA as a first step towards accepting
cryonics. One reason to justify cryonics for anyone
that shares Adventist beliefs would be to use cryonics as a way to be alive to
actually witness their Christ's return.
On a personal note all of my family, save one, my step brother who shares my
atheist beliefs, are Seventh Day Adventists including parents, grand parents,
uncles, cousins and distant cousins on both sides of my family. When I told them
I wanted to be cryonically suspended they weren't shocked or appalled and
support my decision. They don't like that I am
atheist but if I were not and still wished to be involved in cryonics they would
still support me. My mother supplies me with 19 vitamins and supplements I take
daily some of which were suggested by Paul Wakfer and Gary Tripp but she
supplied the rest for many years before I became acquainted with Paul and Gary
or even the Life Extensionist movement. She
did so not only because she is a nurse and able to research and understand the
benefits but because it was natural for her with her life long Life Extensionist
Seventh Day Adventist beliefs. Some of you may recall meeting my step father
who single handed, except for some help from Gary Tripp after we arrived, drove
me to and cared for me at the Asilomar
conference. He took copious notes of all the lectures, not for me but for
himself. He engaged in discussion and genuinely enjoyed learning every aspect. I
firmly believe if money were not the obstacle it is I could persuade much of my
family to use cryonics. They might do so for the afore mentioned reason of
seeing the second coming they believe in or
simply to assuage my grief at their loss. After all it matters not to them as an
observance of faith being no different logically than heart resuscitation. They
would feel if it failed no matter they still have their belief in bodily
resurrection. If it is successful then fine their god still awaits.
Now in anticipation of the discussions to come I wish to cover an issue that
irks me. I have heard people accuse Seventh Day Adventists of being a cult. Now
to me as an atheist, ALL religions are cults. However, being a little more
reasonable and comparing religions to each other I wouldn't define a cult as
having hospitals and colleges all over the
world. Perhaps those that promote this negative aspersion do so because SDA's
won't lock step with the rest of the fundies. Perhaps it is because they don't
shy away from pointing out the hypocrisies of their peer religions. Perhaps the
peer protestant religions don't appreciate being held up to the standard the
SDA's set. I don't know nor do I much
care. I just wanted to nip the cult issue in the bud. If Seventh Day Adventists
are cultists then so are Baptists, Methodists, Pentecostals and all the rest. BY
the way, the "Branch Davidians" of Waco massacre infamy are not and never were
sanctioned by the official SDA church. In fact one of the major warnings
preached by the church is the danger of
following "false prophets" such as David Koresh.
So Charles, given all I have explained, pray tell do please explain why the
Seventh Day Adventists deserve your mocking judgment.
James
--
New quote for the day: "Judge not lest ye be judged and found wanting".
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