X-Message-Number: 16360
From: "John de Rivaz" <>
References: <>
Subject: 7th Day Adventists; Destroy vs. Build
Date: Sun, 27 May 2001 16:14:12 +0100

2001 11:29:21 -0400 (EDT)
> From: Charles Platt <>
> Subject: 7th Day Adventists; Destroy vs. Build
> The church and
> the  [cryonics] organization may actually have an equal chance of
> people, at least in my personal estimation.

There is a difference - a church merely stands by whilst God (or Jesus) does
the reanimation. I don't think that any actually claim to do it themselves,
using existing or future technology. (As far as I know there is no church
yet surrounding the exceptional ideas of NF Fyodorov who claims God requires
humanity to help itself and do the resurrection itself.)

> Can you imagine a hospital that was run on this basis? [no negative
feedback] No provision for
> anyone to sue for malpractice, no control over the PR department, no

Well, it is interesting to note that were airlines run with equal regard to
safety as hospitals, a jumbo jet would crash every week or so. This is
according to a recent tv programme anyway. I don't know whether they
differentiated between deaths resulting from lack of collective fundamental
medical knowledge and those resulting from simple lack of equipment, skills
in a particular situation, or surgeon error. I do note that there are strict
regulations as to hours worked by airline staff that are not applied to the
medical and related professions.

> As for the situation re Alcor and the UK ... (del) ...
> while Linda Chamberlain referred us to an
> Alcor web page that turned out to be hopelessly inaccurate, out of date,
> and misleading.

Unfortunately she does not appear to have had the time to join the
cryonics-europe mailing list and discuss her point of view with the people
there. [send blank email to  to
join]However she has given permission for the web site to include her
article about foreign service from Cryonics magazine.

There seems to me be two issues

1. The reliability of British insurance companies as perceived by US lawyers
advising US potential beneficiaries of these policies (in this case Alcor)
2. Any benefits achieved by providing Alcor vitrification technology to a
patient that has been air lifted after deanimation to the facility as
compared to offering that air-lifted patient a earlier style

As the competition is on an approximately 10:1 difference in cost it would
be irresponsible of Alcor to take the money to provide a service which in
the honest opinion of its officers was wasted. Any argument about whether
either or both procedures are necessary, or work at all, is irrelevant to
this point. The only thing that is relevant is what Alcor's officers
think - if they think their process won't work in a given situation they
would be dishonest in encouraging their patients to pay the vast difference
in costs.

> But, maybe the
> people who are joining CI in large numbers don't read CryoNet.

CryoNet web pages are linked out of the cryonics-europe web site.

> Or maybe,
> like the 7th Day Adventists, they are just looking for a faith. At
> $28,000, it's rather an expensive one.

Whereas I can't agree with Charles Platt's comparison, I wonder whether
anyone has actually costed membership of a church - any church. On the basis
that the cost of membership of CI (and Alcor for that
matter) can be broken down into so much a week using various methods of
funding, I would say that the costs are certainly comparable and indeed CI
comes out cheaper in many instances.

If there is anyone here who is an active member of any church it may be
worthwhile to try and estimate what it costs. Not only  in terms of how much
you put in the collecting plate, but in terms of time spent in worship (at
your normal rates for whatever your job is - or maybe just your national
average wage) , any special clothes you buy and use for religious
observance, fuel costs in getting to church and so on. Of course this is
made more difficult by that fact that you may enjoy religious observance and
so on, but then people also must get some enjoyment in what they get out of
cryonics beyond the feeling that they have done the best they can to remain
alive for as long as possible.

I have put part of James Swayse's article up on the Cryonics-europe web page
(http://www.cryonics-europe.org  contents- religion- Adventists) and then
added some comments and findings of my own afterwards. The web page about
Ellen White linked to from here makes interesting reading, especially a
comment that she is supposed to have been directed by God in what she wrote.
Strange that he spent so much time sending her ideas now known to be flawed
when he could have so usefully told her about pasteurisation, antibiotics
and so on, all of which could have been easily implemented in her time to
save thousands of lives.

Whatever else Charles Platt thinks about CI, at least he can't claim that
its leader thinks he gets his ideas by direct revelation from God!

Sincerely, John de Rivaz
my homepage links to Longevity Report, Fractal Report, music, Inventors'
report, an autobio and various other projects:
http://www.autopsychoice.com - http://www.cryonics-europe.org -

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