X-Message-Number: 16485
From: "Trygve Bauge" <>
References: <008101c0f0a9$8fc89380$>
Subject: Australian case
Date: Sat, 9 Jun 2001 12:43:51 +0200
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Oslo June the 9th, 2001
To the Cryonet,
last night I received from a Swedish cryonists
a requests from Elizabeth Kostadinova in Australia,
regarding how to freeze her dead and burried father.
The request had been sent from Australia Wednesday the 6th, to someone in
Sweden, who forwarded it to someone else who then forwarded it to me, and had
been in my mailbox for a day before I logged on and found it.
On Wednesday the 6th she had apparently already been turned down by Alcor.
I am forwarding the correspondence to the cryonet.
Maybe we all can learn something from this.
A) I have over the years assisted in several border line cases that the
established cryonics groups won't touch.
My reason is: If you are dead, and the alternative is to remain dead, then even
some degree of survival is better.
I can see that people given the best option would like to survive as a 100 %
continuation of themselves.
But when that is no longer an option,
then I am willing to look into survival by degree, e.g. continuation of oneself
to the highest possible extent, rather than insisting on death whenever one
can't get 100 % survival.
Here are some options:
1.100% DEAD, no trace.
2.Surviving through one's offspring.
3.Storing dead tissue samples until it becomes possible and legal and
economically feasible to clone this.
4.Taking, cultivating and cryonically preserving live tissue samples until it
becomes legal and someone is willing and able to clone this and can afford to do
so.
5. For each patient, storing such mental content that is common for all humans,
likely shared with many humans that lived at the same time, or likely shared
with a larger population group that still is alive. So that such common mental
content easier can be taught to the clone by conventionmal teaching methods.
6. Storing records of peoples names, births, life, personal history, will
system, and mental content, to the extent this can be retrieved from other
sources than the newly diseased, e.g. from next of kin, friends and aquaintences
that still are alive, or can be gleaned from the writings, belongings and
achievments of the dead person itself.
And thus making it easier to restore even the most personal mental content in a
clone.
(Kind of like the main Tibetan lamas having to read the writings of and about
their predecessors, but with the added advantage of sharing the latter's genetic
makeup as well.)
7. It would of course be much easier if a computer company streamlined and
automated a system for storing
live cell samples and the essence of a persons qualities, history, will system
and main mental content, so that people while they still are alive could easily
and affordably
take, have cultivated and stored live cell samples for future cloning and easily
could store electronically what it would take to teach a clone the essence of
its predecessor's mental content.
(One could possibly foresee churches, companies and groups taking on such
storing much like the Mormons that already are storing records of peoples names,
birth and death, and the Norwegian government that is considering storing blood
samples for larger population groups.)
8. Even when the brain has become "mush", freezing the body, could increase your
degree of continuation.
It might still be possible to rescue some biological tissue and some information
from your half rotten body.
E.g. if your separate cell samples get lost, your DNA might
still be restored from sampling your dead body.
I have seen several examples when hospitals and doctors have confiscated cell
samples and destroyed such. When cloning become possible, many politicians
panicked and several countries including Norway temporarily outlined cloning.
Even before the law passed, one head of a Norwegian hospital confiscated and
destroyed one set of cell samples because as he said: it would soon be illegal
to clone it, and therefore he wanted to destroy it.
Over the years I have seen other cell samples getting lost overtime, being
misplaced, being mislabeled, being thawd out, being thrown out, being destroyed
by wrong chemical threatments, being consumed for other scientific purposes or
otherwise being treated in such a way that they no longer are available.
9.In better cases, parts of the body, individual tissues or even individual
organs could posssibly be repaired.
One can foresee several combinations of combining repaired tissues and cloned
tissues and restoring the content from other sources.
From 100% clone to bodies that are cloned but have got older tissues and/or
organs implanted in the clone,
to older bodies that are partially repaired, and partially have received cloned
tissue transplants.
E.g. from inplanting one's own tissue cultures in a clone, to at the other end
implanting a cloned hearth in one's otherwise restored older body.
10 And in the best cases one might even be able to glean and restore still more
of one's mental content from the frozen body.
Either by scanning the body for information still stored in it, or in any of its
tissues, and teaching this to a clone, or by actually repairing some of the
information storing tissues
and transplanting these to a clone, or bringing back the older body with some of
its mental content intact or repaired.
---
In the most borderline cases the question is one of
future cloning of dead tissue from fragmented DNA pieces (once this becomes
possible and legal) and restoring your mental content from other sources than
your own brain,
But even that could mean more than 99% survival of all you
regard as genuinly you!
As far as the continuation of a sense of being oneself?
From the clone's point of you it will be a continuation of you.
And to the extent it is your own DNA code that has been restored, or one of your
own cells that has been cloned, or some of your own cells that have been
transplanted, or some of your own tissues or mental content that is surving,
this part of you will be a direct continuation of you.
The life that is burning in you will have survived, and the consciousness (or
sensation) on the cellular level.
And in better cases the basic awareness of larger tissue groups or even the life
of some of your nervecells might be contined.
In the best cases it could be kind of like waking up from a stroke, but with the
advantage of having replaced the dead nerve tissue with new live tissue, and
with the information in large part restored to the new tissue.
I for one share the old Egyptians desire for longevity,
even at high costs and even if the brain and other softer organs can't be
preserved.
It would be nice to have one's nerve cells all survive,
but when that is no longer an option than I opt for survival to the highest
possible extent.
Taking simple steps to preserve one's DNA, cell kultures and the essence of
one's mental content, could also make it much easier to survive 100%. E.g. by
expanding and providing the market, skills and means necessary to bring about
successful freezing, thawing and repair of live organs and more complex live
organisms, and eventually still better restoration of life from still worse case
scenarios.
Thus I do assist people that the main cryonics groups turn down.
B) However, as in this Australian case one should once again be reminded of the
importance of contacting cryonic groups up front, looking into cryonics,
signing up, and gathering the necessary contacts pre mortem.
And also the importance of knowing up front who to contact, having the right
phone numbers at hand, having several alternative contacts and having someone to
call these. So not to be dependent upon that someone passes one's request on
to some stranger that then passes it on to some other stranger that then happens
to log onto one's computer instead of being on vacation.
For the future: It might be easier to call me right a way at (47)22-14-80-78
Sincerely,
Trygve Bauge
To Elizabeth Kostadinova,
I am forwarding your letters to the Cryonet,
a letter circle dedicated to cryonics.
I am also sending you a copy of the latest issues of Cryonet.
To subscribe to this letter circle you send an e-mail to:
In the Subject line (not the main body) you write: subscribe
Maybe some of the other readers of Cryonet can be of some assistance as well?
Sincerely,
Trygve Bauge
----- Original Message -----
From: elizabeth kostadinova.
To:
Sent: Saturday, June 09, 2001 8:00 AM
Subject: REGARDING ASISSTENCE,
DEAR TRYGRE,BAUGE,
THANK-YOU FOR YOUR EMAIL
REGARDING HELPING ME PRESERVE MY FATHER HAD DIED
AND YOUR NFORMATIONS WAS VERY,POSITIVE AND INFORMATIVE,AND HELPFUL
BUT ONE PROBLEM HAVE,AS I HAVE APPLYED FOR AN APPLICATION FOR THE BODY TO BE
EXHUMED,BUT THE AUSTRALIAN AUTHORIY OR THE DEPATENTIN CHARGE OF EXHUMATIONS A
BODY TO BE EXHUME,WANTS VERY ENOUGH REASONS FOR IMMEDIATE EXHUMATION,BASED
ON WHAT I
TELL THEM I WANT TO DO WITH THE BODY ,THEY WILL ONLY ALLOW EXHUMATION WITH A
GOOD MOTIVE AND RESONABLE REASON WILL ALLOW FOR THE EXHUMATION,I DONT THINK
THEY WOULD ALLOW ME THE NEXT OF KIN,TO EXHUME THE BODY AND BRING IT HOME AND
FREEZE IT MYSELF ,I TELL YOU NOW THEY DEFINELT WOULD NOT ALLOW THIS AT ALL.
BE POSSIBLEY ALLOWED, BY AUSTRALIAN AUTHORITY,BUT ONLY ALLOWED FROM AN
QUILIFIED MEDICAL INSTIUTE THAT DEALS IN THIS AREA THERE IS A POSSIBLE CHANCE
THAT THEY WOULD ALLOW ,THE BODY TO BE TRANPORTED, TO A
INSTIUTE OR MEDICAL FACILITY THAT PROVIDES THIS SORT OF SERVICE,
THAT WILL ACCEPT THE BODY ,
FOR FUTURE MEDICAL ,ADVANCES,AND SCIENCETIC PURPOSES,AND ARE LICENCED TO
PROVIDE THESE SERVICES,AS LICENCED ORGANISATION
SO THATSWHY I NEED YOU TO EITHER ACCEPT THE BODY AND
FREEZE IT USING YOUR KNOWLEDGE AND QUILIFICATIONS .
IF YOU HAVE THE STORAGE ,AND MEDICAL RESOURCE TO
CLONE,PRESERVE, AND REPAIR,.
THE ONLY WAY I CAN PRESERVE MY FATHER IS BY SENDING HIM TO A MEDICAL FACILTY
OF INSTITUTE THAT DOES ALL THE MEDICAL RESEACH AND TESTING PRODCEDURE, AND IS
AN LICENCED ORGANISTATION THAT PROVIDES THIS SERVICE TO ONE.ONCE THE
ORGANISTION OR INSTUTE AGRREES TO EXCEPT DECEASED,INRMATIONS,FOR PRESERVATION
AND REPAIR AND OTHER FUTURE POSSIBLEITY OF CLONING.
BUT IF YOU ASSIST ME ACCEPTING THE BODY,AND FREEZEING IT,AND EXCEPTING THE
DECAESED A MEDICAL PATIENT,ONLY THEN SOME THING CAN BE DONE.
IF I GET A WRITTEN CONTRACT,THENHE FACLITATOR WHICH YOUR SELF OR OTHER STORAGE
POVIDER THAT YOU RECOMMEND AND MY SELF CAN BE MADE THAT THE BODY WILL BE
STORED FOR FUTURE MEDICAL ADVANCES IN A LICENCED QULIFIED FACILTY,ONLY THEN
THE POSSIBLELY
OF THE BODY TO BE LEGALLY EXHUMED AND EXCEPTED,
IF YOU TELL ME THAT YOU CAN EXCEPT THE BODY AND OFFER THESE RESOURSES AS ITS
TO DIFFICULT FOR ME TO FIND ALL
RESOUCES AND GETTING THE BODY EXHUMED TO BE DONE BY ME A HOME THATS
IMMPOSSIBLE AND WILL NOT BE ALLOWED/BUT IF A MEDICAL INSTUTE TAKE THE DECEASED
,
AND GIVES WRITTEN AUTHORIY , THAT THEY EXCEPT THE BODY FOR FUTURE MEDICAL
ADVANCESWHICH I THEN L CAN SUBMIT
TO AUSTRALIAN AUTHORITY HERE,AND THEN ORGANISE THOUGH A FUNERAL DIRECTOR
TRANIT OF THE BODY TO THIS LOCATION, WHERE EVER IN THE WORLD,I NEED,
PERSON WHO CAN SUPPLY THE STORAGE FACILIES,AND PROVIDE THESE MEDICAL RESOUCSES
TO TAKE THE BODY.
CAN YOU TAKE THE BODY FOR FREEZEING AND ASSISTIN
OTHER RESOURCES OF CLONEING REPAIR ECT,
PLEASE TELL ME IRSTLY IF YOU CAN EXCEPT THE PERSON
OR KNOW AN INSITUTE BESIDES OR CRYNOCIS USA.THAT WILL DEFINETLY EXCEPT BURIED
DECEASED PERSONS FO FREEZEING AND PRESERVEING .
AS AGAIN I STRESS I NEED TO HAVE A LICENCE TO PURCHASE ALL THAT YOU EXPALIN,AS
THERE ARE MANY RESTRICTIONS IN DOING THIS MY SELF,IT WILL TAKE TOO LONG,
BUT THROUGH A CONSTENTING PROVIDER SOMETHING CAN BE DONE.QUICKER,
AS THE MONEY AND FUNDS CONCERNED, THERE IS POSSIBILIY FOR SOME SUCCESS FROM
US THE FAMILY
THANK-YOU FOR YOUR DETAILED INFORMATION AND KIND HEARTED ADVICE,
BUT YOU NEED TO TELLLME IF YOU CAN EXPECT THE BODY ,OR KNOW OF AN
ORGANISTATION THAT WILL ,AS FUNDING WILL BE PROVIDED,
PLEASE IMMEDIATELY LET ME KNOW OF YOUR PROGESS AND REPLY,
EMAIL ELIZABETH KOST
EMAIL
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