X-Message-Number: 16600 Date: Wed, 20 Jun 2001 01:37:51 -0400 From: "Stephen W. Bridge" <> Subject: Re: On Fraud and Learning From Steve Bridge In reply to Message #16582 From: Date: Mon, 18 Jun 2001 19:09:29 EDT Subject: On Fraud and Learning Mike Darwin makes some valuable points about the nature of fraud and how to avoid it. I hope everyone learns from this. I could make several self- defensive arguments back; but I don't intend to prolong this discussion. And I'm not really interested either in defending my honor or in defining just exactly what my precise level of foolishness was at this late date. If everyone learns something from the conversation and avoids similar problems in the future, that will be fine. However, I do want to make one thing very clear. I AGREE with Mike that Fred Chamberlain was the key to exposing the fraud or incompetence of the Vissers, and if I said anything that appeared counter to that, I apologize. And a brief reply to Charles Platt in his post: Message #16583 Date: Mon, 18 Jun 2001 13:36:11 -0400 (EDT) From: Charles Platt <> Subject: visser >A couple other comments re Steve Bridge's post. First, if Alcor and CI had >pursued their interest in Visser cooperatively and openly instead of >secretly, probably the whole farce could have been avoided, and $50,000 >could have been saved. The preconception that Alcor and CI had stumbled >upon something which must be kept confidential, and which they intended to >protect under an EXCLUSIVE licensing arrangement, resulted in the >organizations depriving themselves of expert advice. Absolutely true, Charles. But all through the history of cryonics, organizations have reacted this way in other, smaller matters and have constantly deprived themselves of advice by being pissed off at each other. Or because of past angers have ignored valuable advice thrust upon them without asking. This is not true only of Alcor. If there had been some way for us all to work together by melding all of our strengths, cryonics would be a lot farther along now. I always liked the three-way leadership of Carlos Mondragon, Mike Darwin, and Jerry Leaf. They balanced each other through their arguing and tugging, bolstered in different ways by Saul Kent, Steve Harris, Hugh Hixon, Paul Genteman, and at times by people like myself. But that trinity was also explosively mismatched in many ways and when Jerry went into suspension, it all collapsed. The explosiveness might have caused that eventually, in any case. I would have liked to have been the President of an organization with all of the talents above, plus those of Charles Platt, Dave Pizer, Fred Chamberlain, Linda Chamberlain, Brenda Peters, Ben Best, Paul Wakfer, Brian Wowk, Mike Riskin, Ralph Whelan, Tanya Jones, Derek Ryan, and many others. And with the ability to consult people like Bob Ettinger, Jerry White, Paul Segal, and Jim Yount. And with the knowledge and mental strength to sort out the right answer from the various conflicting opinions sure to arise. But I wasn't strong enough to do that in reality, and I don't know anyone who is. Yes, inclusive research is a good thing for cryonics - and very difficult to perform in the all too human egosphere that surrounds us. Steve Bridge Rate This Message: http://www.cryonet.org/cgi-bin/rate.cgi?msg=16600