X-Message-Number: 16623 From: Date: Thu, 21 Jun 2001 18:37:00 EDT Subject: Gay/Hetero discussion --part1_82.c0123d5.2863d10c_boundary Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit In the last cryonet discussion, Mr Epstein makes several assertiions: To Deathist Lurker Girl, Mr. Epstein asserts: >If you turned into something not-you >deluded that it was you,you/it wouldn't >really be you. Mike Darwin Said: >> I don't demand equal treatment except under the law. And Mr. Epstein replied to Mike Darwin: >Well,the interpretation of that can >extend to things I think inappropriate. >There should,I believe,be certain advantages >to one's sexual relationships being heterosexual >ones because these are more useful to the species. I'm soooooo interested in what Mr. Epstein thinks "inappropriate" about all people receiving equal treatment under the law. How can you even type something like the above without your fingers bleeding and your ears imploding? (I can't wait for the next cryonet, where Mr. Epstein I expect will assert that he doesn't think people shouldn't receive equal treatment under the law.. unless he finds it not according to his interpretation. You know - assuring gays equal rights- too inconvenient or icky for Mr Epstein.) When pressed to consider tolerance for diversity in the human genome Mr Epstein asserts: >I'm certainly familiar with that >slippery-slope attitude,which >equates any eugenic motivation >whatsoever with a desire for >death camps in every town. >But no,my interest is clear, >strictly in weeding out TRAITS. >And it doesn't extend to sterilizing >anyone mentally competent to refuse. How gracious. But sterilizing the mentally incompetent is fine? How will that be decided? Will it apply to the mentally ill? Who will set up those guidelines? So if someone has a nervous breakdown, or suffers from depression, Mr Epstein can whack their balls off with impunity? What a lovely world that is. And so worth living in. Where's my coffin, please? Do me a favor and shovel in the dirt, there's a good fellow. Mr. Epstein also asserts: >I doubt immortalism is in genes. I think it wonderfully ironic, though, that a disproportionate number of gay and non reproducing hetero people apparently spearheaded and funded the cryonics movement. Could it be that immortalism is weighted more towards gay or non reproducing heterosexuals? Mr. Epstein possibly has a better chance at achieving immortality by remaining celibate- as evidenced by Mike Darwin's tremendous essay regarding gays in the cryonics movement. Mr Epstein then asserts how disturbing it might be to wake and find his sexuality changed without his permission! : >But yes,certainly interests can be >abused.I remember a line in Spider >Robinson's CALLAHAN'S LADY,about >the operator of a bisexual bordello: >"Lady Sally tolerates monosexuals, >but doesn't understand them"...and >can imagine a future government that >doesn't so tolerate telling a cryonics >organization that those in suspension >must be modified..."they come out bi, >or it's bye-bye"...and no,this idea >doesn't thrill me. But apparently the idea of remaking everyone else into his guidelines gives Mr Epstein quite the cheap thrill. Imagine how fond I am of Mr Epstein, who would "weed out" the characteristic that makes it possible for me to love another. And imagine how kindly I viewed Lee Corbin's assertion that they could remake me into a hetero. I found it horrific to contemplate. Yes, even Mr. Epstein admits >If you turned into something not-you >deluded that it was you,you/it wouldn't >really be you. And yet, again, I return to the reason I originally posted my short message. I don't think this is the right forum for gay rights, at all, but it is a forum to assert that I don't want anyone editing my genome or memories or sexual orientation without my permission. Mr. Epstein doesn't understand the horrors he proposes, I am convinced. And I think that is shown over and over in his posts. When he likens his myopia (an eyesight deficiency) to my homosexuality ( which he views as a genetic/sexual deficiency) it shows the depth of his ignorance. To further the metaphor, I've decided that Mr Epstein is right about his myopia. And I think it should be weeded out. Should we trust him to close his eyelids and keep them closed, or should we surgically remove his defective eyes so they don't offend us anymore? Recently, a rather sophmoric high school level exchange occurred on cryonet, prompted (as I remember) by James Swayze's comments regarding his physical difficulties with some aspects of sex. Many commented inanely, with assinine assertions that chemical stimulation of his brain would produce the desired alleviation of his discomfort. JESUS FUCKING CHRIST. Is that what you people think SEX is about? if sex was solely about reproduction, we could do it by mail order. If its about getting your jollies, we can stick a wire in our brains and drool in a corner all day. For ME, and I hope for the rest of you, sex is about communicating, loving, and pleasing your partner... its about forming families and caring and support- its about the ephemeral joy that can change our entire consciousness with the illumination that we are loved. Perhaps this is what Mr Swayze was talking about. I hope he makes it to the future, and I hope he finds true love there, and a healthy body to celebrate it with. As for Mike Perry, who is celibate- how indelicate and awful the comments that suggested he would be just so much happier if he just got some. Well, Mr Perry, I hope you stay as you are, for as long as you like, and if you ever want to change your sexual behavior, I will neither applaud nor deride you for any position on sexual activity or celibacy- what you want for yourself is fine with me and I sincerely hope you are happy- whatever, and whenever, you decide as you may. Sorry, but on a planet of 7 billion, I don't think reproduction or survival of the species is threatened by homosexuality. So, for Mr Epstein, or Mr. Corbin, to think about weeding out my homosexuality, remaking me into a heterosexual- what a broken, horrible sad creature I would be then, with no ability to remember those I'd loved and the reasons I'd loved them- with alien memories, or replaced memories of unreal people or events- or desires that are alien to my memory. Take my eyes first- but not shatter my consciousness and paint a happy smile on an idiot robot you might conceive to take my place. And finally, Mr Epstein, so intent on judging others, something I find distasteful and to be avoided when possible- what a strange black and white world of good and evil you live in, with your God to give you moral certainty. But I've finally decided you're not worshipping God, you're just sucking up to him because you want his job- being so obviously convinced you can do it better than he. I've observed extropianism/transhumanism/cryonics for the better part of 20 years. The flaws I've seen come to this- perhaps we are reaching to the stars, but too often in our desire to be transhuman, we deny our feet of clay, and our very real nature as human. I think it necessary to weigh our choices carefully. I think it necessary to admit our capacity for harm is as great or greater than our capacity for good, and that all that can save us is the choices we make. Don't be afraid of differences. Let go of hatred and fear. Celebrate life. And if you get to the end of the universe- have something more to celebrate about your years than the fact you made it. Life without value is not worth living. Hurting others- Mr Epstein's assertions that gay men should only be celibate, in response to their pointed out value in society- makes me shudder and sick to my stomach. Mr. Epstein carefully avoided responding to Mike Darwin's reversal of his position on gay/hetero values- and still, still, still, I believe, harbors a terrible prejudice. What harm that gays have relations and families and love? What harm, Mr Epstein? Why can't I love someone, share a life, marry, adopt, even; if I desire, water the lawn, take out the trash, walk on the beach at sunset holding hands, lay in bed in the middle of the night and watch my lover's face as he sleeps, make love in the early morning light, read the paper aloud at the breakfast table, delight in small kindnesses and have someone who is a best friend and a lover and a partner in life, for as long as we desire? Can't I call that man husband, and share his insurance benefits? Can I adopt his children, and devote myself to them even if my husband should die? If I go to the hospital, can't he be there to help guide the doctors in our wishes? If I should die or become suspended, can't he inherit my estate? Why not? Why not? Why not? Michael Donahue --part1_82.c0123d5.2863d10c_boundary Content-Type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII" [ AUTOMATICALLY SKIPPING HTML ENCODING! ] Rate This Message: http://www.cryonet.org/cgi-bin/rate.cgi?msg=16623