X-Message-Number: 16693
From: "Trygve Bauge" <>
Subject: Trygve's response to Veronica
Date: Mon, 25 Jun 2001 23:14:16 +0200

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 "veronica sullivan" <> wrote:

>In message 16629 Charles Platt wrote;

>> And would it also be appropriate to consider that the credibility of
>> cryonics is not enhanced by do-it-yourself procedures, with the attendant
>> risk of bad publicity--especially when the "patient" has been dead and
>> buried for weeks? What possible justification is there for encouraging
>> anyone to do this, if you want cryonics to be taken seriously?

>This assumption is absolutely correct!  Attempting to set up a shonky '
>back-yard do it yourself, keep your badly decomposed dad in the dewar in the
>shed or offshore' and encouraging someone to do this is not on(e).

Check your premises before jumping to conclusions:

1. We are not speaking of any shonky back yard do it yourself etc....

We are speaking about renting space in a business park that looks nicer than the
one Alcor was in in Riverside and certainly looks nicer than anything Trans 
Time has ever been in!
We do not have slum in Norway the way you have in most large US cities.

We are one of the richest countries in the world. And our government is firmly 
in the black thanks to the North sea oil. The government is making more money 
each year than it is able to spend. 

We are speaking about buying a state of the art 4 person cryonics dewar or a 
state of the art double length cryostar electrical freezer (minus 140 degrees 
Celcius). In early 1994 Harris manufacturing gave me a price quote on combining 
two of their chest freezers into one large chest freezer that would be long 
enough to hold a human body (it could actually hold two bodies above one 
another) it would have two cascading style cooling systems instead of one.
And be backfilled with dry ice as a safety meassure.

The INS (The us immigration and naturalization service) prevented me from 
installing such a dewar and such an electrical freezer at my site in Colorado. 
But they can't prevent me from doing it here in Norway.

As soon as we get some more clients or investors, we would build a state of the 
art partly terrain integrated cryonic facility of the kind I started building 
and has had to leave unfinished in Colorado.

The state of the art concrete building still stands there unfinished. We never 
got it finished, so my grandfather is stored in a nice Tuff shed that we got for
free from our sponsor Tuff Shed in Denver. 

>To pursue this in Australia, Norway or any other country would cause
>irreparable damage to the cryonics community of the country concerned. Given
>the current global climate in relation to cryonic suspensions.

OH yea?. I guess you have lived in Colorado or in Norway and know all about the 
conditions of cryonics there?

What I did in Colorado has in no way done any harm to cryonics. Cryonics is not 
outlawed in Colorado. The media has been quite supportive both in Colorado and 
in Norway.

The other cryonics organizations have also received a large part of their 
funding from taking on adverse cases. I think the media in Norway too, will be 
able to understand that Rome was not built in one day and the value of starting 
where one is and using the available funding to create still better solutions 
that will bring us nearer the ability to revive frozen corpses than we are now.

We might never be able to restore to life Elizabeths father, but the same can be
said about everyone frozen at Alcor and CI.

But by taking on adverse cases we might bring about improvements that will 
enable successful reanimation of future cryopatients. That is why I froze my 
grand father, because I want to improve cryonics before I die myself. And that I
have never hidden for the media, and never received any criticism for either.

>I have already indicated to Elizabeth that current Australian legislation
>forbids the private storage of a deceased person in your own home, excluding
>cremation of course.

What about setting up a scientific research organization or trust?

`Would the Australian governement permit such an entity to keep bodies in 

Do they let their main universities accept body donations for research or for 
use in anatomy classes?

>Elizabeth, what is your first language? As there are some of us on this list
>who are bi and multi-lingual - who may be able to answer your queries in
>your own language. Then you will hopefully gain a clearer understanding of
>the issues related to cryonics. I am sorry for the loss of your father who
>you obviously loved dearly, as evidenced by your frequent postings. 

I have explained to Elizabeth how to subscribe to the cryonet. 

Elizabeth has so far not posted to the Cryonet. And I do not think she is 
subscribing to it either. I have forwarded her posts to Cryonet, and am 
forwarding anything regarding her case that appears on Cryonet, to her.

Maybe someone else too, will send her a letter and encourage her to subscribe to
cryonet, and explain how she can subscribe and post?

>your situation remains very grim in attempting to get your father
>cryonically suspended.

I agree. However, I recall even grimmer cryonic cases, some that have lead to 
and some that have not.

Think about the well known cryonisist that a few years ago was deported from 
Canada and back to the United States after having dug up a corpse in Canada 
without the government's approval (and possibly without the next of kin's), as a
result of which said Canadian state banned cryonics.
Or think about the frozen corpses thawed out over the years ( Chatsworth ?)

Think about the autopsied Spanish girl that Alcor has frozen, and where they 
aren't even sure that the sliced brain was included in what they froze.

And think of the French lady that was many months without adequate dry ice 
before being frozen a year later at CI.

Think of all various cryonics cases where someone have been frozen in spite of 
family conflict, or had their suspension delayed because of such?

Think about Dora Kents Head and the controversy over the suspician that it was 
severed and frozen before death?

Bottom line is: the established parts of cryonics have done much more 
controversial things than what we are trying to accomplish:

We are just setting up a facility, and asking the approval of the Australian and
the Norwegian government to move a body from being buried in dirt to being 
buried in liquid nitrogen at no cost to anyone else but those pursuing this 
venture. And this will only be done if all the next of kin agrees. And it will 
be set up as a scientific venture, with the purpose of establishing a cryonic 
facility that then can be improved over the time. The Australian case will just 
be presented as a test run of the facility much like Universities use donated 
corpses for educational or scientific purposes or to test new procedures.

No one is promising to bring anyone back and no one is doing anything 
illegal,and everything is being publicized and done in the open.


Trygve Bauge


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