X-Message-Number: 16697
From: "Trygve Bauge" <>
Subject: Trygve's response to Charles Platt, part 2.
Date: Tue, 26 Jun 2001 06:28:52 +0200
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>Charles Platt <> wrote:
>>Subject: do-it-yourself, continued
>
>> From: "Trygve Bauge" <>
>
>> or accidentially get burried before their cryonics provider gets notified of
>> their death?
>
>If someone has signed up for cryonics, the phrase "signed up" should tell
>you that there is a contract. While it is true that the dead have no legal
>rights, it is also true that cryonics organizations traditional have tried
>very diligently to honor their contracts. If someone signs up and
>specifies that he wants to be preserved no matter how minuscule a fraction
>of decayed remains exists, the organization should honor his wishes, even
>if the only detectable remnant is a fingernail paring. If questioned on
>this policy, the organization can rightly say, "We were obeying the
>provisions of a contract, drawn up while the person was of sound mind and
>judgment. We may or may not agree with his wishes, but we are ethically
>bound to carry them out."
>
In many countries the nearest next of kin own the dead body, and has the final
say in where to store this. A contract with the next of kin has the same legal
standing as a contract made with the diseased in the abscence of the latter. As
a matter of fact some jurisdictions will let the next of kin decide otherwise
than what the newly diseased have contracted for!!!!
In Norway the next of kin has presedence over the newly diseased own expressed
will!!!
My grandfather had planned to be cremated, but we had no problems freezing him
anyway. Thus from a cryonic point of view it is very important for cryonisists
to select or instruct next of kin properly or to donate one's body to someone
that will maintain it cryonically!
>The dead person in Australia had not signed up. Thus any cryonics
>organization that takes this case is not bound by any contract and can
>only say either a) "We dug him up and froze him because we are crazy
>enough to believe he still has a chance of future life" or b) "We did it
>for the money and we really need a new dewar." Which option do you think
>the media will prefer?
>
Any cryonics company taking on the case would be bound by a contract to the next
of kin.
What I am doing is primarily to assist the next of kin in setting up a new
cryonics organization that they would have a large owner interest in. In which
case you are basically attacking the next of kin for doing what they want. I
doubt that they want to defraud themselves, but they probably need a new dewar
in order to store their dead relative.
What can be done with a dead long burried corpse?
It can be stored, some people like to maintain their dead relatives, witness all
the people that pay a lot for the best possible embalming.
Maybe it can be gleaned for DNA fragments and cloned, if cloning of dead tissue
ever becomes possible, legal and affordable.
Maybe certain tisse groups or larger parts of the body can be restored without
the mental content, while the rest of the tissues can be cloned.
Maybe the mental content to a large extent can be restored from other sources
than the dead corpse itself.
How much has to be restored and how much can just be copied in, for it to still
be the same person, or for it to be an actual continuation of the same
consciousness and not just a clone thinking that it is the original?
Well let the future come up with the correct answer, in the meantime let us
freeze those that want it or those who's relatives want this, and can afford it.
For some relatives a clone would still be prefeable to no clone. Even though the
original is long dead. And the nearest kin owns the body and can preserve this
for cloning purposes even if the original person never will be restored. Any
clone will possibly be happy to be born too, even if it is not the original
person any more.
Maybe it is all just an expensive burial form that will lead no where but to
bancruptcy?
But you see it is also a question of knowing that one did the best one possibly
could,
even at high costs, and to some people that gives meaning to life.
I couldn't care less what the media says. What counts is that oneself does what
one thinks to be right. The media says whatever it wants. But it is fairly easy
to rebut it. Most of the time it is completely unnessary to rebut any media
errors, achievements over time will be good enough rebuttal.
>> Am I the only one who favours that we then start to systematically dig up
>> the dead, take DNA samples, clone and raise the dead, and then give them the
>> option of paying back what it cost to raise them, much like people pay back
>> a student loan?
>
>And what if they don't want to pay after you wake them up? The
>organization says, "Okay, forget it!" and kills them?
>
But Charles how can you even ask sush a question, and still claim that you are
concerned about being taken seriously?
It is fairly easy, you do as with other student loans or taxes that are not
paid:
You sent it to collection. All it takes is a law that says that those that raise
and restore someone to life can claim a certain sum (the going rate of such an
expense once it becomes available, plus a certain profit, within a certain
number of years.) Some reanimated individuals will be unable to pay, and thus
the profit on those that are able to pay will have to cover such losses. If
cryonic patients form brotherhoods, where they agree to take on the cost of
bringing back on another and up front agree to pay after the reanimation, then
this would reduce the need for forced collections. if done properly most people
would be glad to pay a small sum for having been brought back, and would be
eager to assist others in coming back too.
If any revival tax becomes to expensive we would probably get a tax revolt. With
voluntary brotherhoods, each reanimated person up front of suspension having
promissed to try to bring back 5 more cryonic patients, we wouldn't need a tax
at all.
>> At the existing cryonics providers there seem to be a prevailing attitude,
>> that if one can't freeze a person under the most ideal circumstances, then
>> one should rather let the person rot.
>
>The purpose of cryonics is to provide some chance of restoring life, with
>personality and preferably memories intact; and if this chance is
>generally agreed (even by the most optimistic nanotech enthusiast) to be
>zero, the organization has no excuse for taking people's money, and can
>rightly be accused of fraud.
>
My goal is individual life-extension to the highest possible degree,
Though I would prefer not to die,
and would prefer to be frozen under ideal circumstances when I die,
I would still prefer to be brought back without memory, rather than not to be
brought back at all,
I would still want to be cloned,
and to have regular kids too.
I kind of like the idea that there will be a clone that will experience itself
to be a continuation of me, and that as far as others are concerned, for all
practical purposes will be me.
That is as far as I see it, an enormous progress from just rotting away.
You are emotionally jumping to unwarrented conclusions when say that it is no
excuse for cloning people or for bringing them back without memory, or with
memory restored from other sources than the corpse itself.
Let people decide for themselves if they want this, in lack of something better,
or as a step towards developing still better solutions.
It is not fraud if you clearly state what you are pursuing.
Cryonics is not just about freezing live people and bringing them back
undamaged.
It is basically about freezing humans and parts of humans in an effort to secure
still better levels of future life from the same.
Cryonics cover the challenge of still better bringing people back from still
worse premises
and in the process using cold storage as a storage media to arrest further
biological breakdown.
Even bringing a person back without its memory would be to bring some part of it
back
and would be an improvement and a step in the right direction and something we
have to master in order to bring back people with their personality and memory.
I have no problem with letting cryonics cover and include cell storage aimed at
future cloning.
Why not claim this as the first successful and available cryonics technique?
As far as popular support for cryonics is concerned, it would be much more
damaging to define cryonics so narrowly that it for the longest possible time
will seem to have no workable treatments to offer.
>> It seems to me, that if the existing cryonics providers won't accept us if
>> we inadvertently have been burried,
>> then we need to set up another cryonics provider.
>
>Go ahead, but don't call it a "cryonics" provider.
I do, because cryonics is not just about freezing people we already know how to
bring back,
but rather is and always have been about freezing people we do not yet know how
to bring back.
We should be inclusive here,
and if we sometime become able to freeze live organisms and bring these back
undamaged, we should not forget the dead and those frozen under adverse
circumstances, but strive to widen the range of damages we can reverse.
It would be a threat to those frozen to call only the most successful
suspensions for cryonics.
We should rather use a definition of cryonics that gives us a callenge to still
better restore life from still worse premises.
>
>> For years I have hoped that someone in the cryonics movement would buy a
>> freezer, set up a laboratory for tissue cultivation and offer to freeze live
>> cell samples, for future cloning.
>
>Your wish is granted. "Cells4Life" headed by Fred Chamberlain has this
>intention, as I understand it. Note that it is a separate venture from
>Alcor and will not be referred to as a "cryonics" organization.
>
Well I do, because I regard cell sampling, cell freezing and cloning as
necessary means to master in order to successfully still better restore peoples
bodies, personality and memories.
Besides any cryonics organization with respect for itself ought to store live
cell samples and some backup of its clients mental content as means towards
their future reanimation.
I regard cloning from frozen cells as the first successful cryonics technique.
It certainly doesn't harm cryonics to think that way.
>> Once again I call upon the existing cryonics groups to reconsider their
>> treatment of Elizabeth Kostadinova.
>> She apparently has the money to have her father frozen.
>> I call upon CI, Alcor, Trans Time etc. to use this opportunity to get the
>> funding for a new 4 person dewar.
>
>If Elizabeth wishes to preserve a cell sample for future cloning, I'm sure
>there will be no objection. But that isn't what she's after, is it?
She wishes to preserve the body, period.
And I understand her sentiment or emotion.
Non of us know for sure what that can be and can't be possible in the future or
what that will be needed to restore a human being.
Let the future decide what is needed, and what that can be used.
And why throw out some tissue that possibly can be physically restored,
though we can't conceive yet of any way to bring back the same person?
Maybe we are wrong when we think that it won't be the same person if the
physical body (minus the mental content) has been healed and the mental content
has been added from external sources.
My early opposition to just storing heads and brains was based on the idea that
maybe we would need some other part of the body to best or earliest be able to
brink back the patient.
At that time it looked like no adult cells could be cloned, and that the
precurser cells for sperm cells, were the cells we most likely would be able to
successfully clone.
Well a completly different technique was eventually found that enables cloning
from specialized cells. But who could have foreseen that?
Bottom line is: If you can afford to store the whole body, store it, even if it
is rotten.
The more pieces of a body you store the more pieces the future will have to play
around with
and the more it will most likley be able to do with these pieces.
>
>> A few days later the local town board in the small mountain town of
>> Nederland Colorado decided to use this opportunity to try to shut down
>> my local cryonics facility, by passing a town ordinance that on its
>> face value also would have made it illegal to store frozen broccoli.
>> They failed to shut down my facility. Yes there was an uproar in the
>> town: by the 70 percent of the population that supported me and my
>> facility. The old down board was thrown out and replaced by a new.
>> Since then the town board has not attempted to shut me down. The
>> storage of my grandfather is kind of grandfathered in, legally
>> speaking, if you understand what I mean. Bo Shaffer has been taking
>> care of the facility and adding dry ice on my grandfather for the last
>> 5 years or so. We have received and still receive a lot of positive
>> media coverage, and one award winning short movie was made about the
>> case. Leading to positive media coverage on national TV programs in
>> The United States, Brazil and Norway and world wide on the National
>> Geographic channel.
>
>Thanks for the upbeat version. Still, I do seem to recall a lot of
>publicity that could not be described as positive. Also, I seem to recall
>that Nederland still maintains its ban against cryonics, which resulted
>from your activities. True?
Nederland is a small town of 1500 people.
The town board created an ordinance against storing frozen biological materials
within the town limits.
And tried to use that to shut us down.
A local survey showed 70 percent support for my operation.
The county health officials supported my venture and has had no objection to
this,
nor has the state had any objections.
The town board failed to shut me down, and was replaced.
The ordinance is still on the books.
My operation is however grandfathered in and is thus not covered by the
ordinance.
It is the INS who is preventing me from going back.
Not being able to go back, and not bothered by the ordinance, I have seen no
need to do anything to remove the latter.
Several locals have called for more cryonic operations in the same town, ("If
one frozen body generates so much publicity and business for the town, then 2
corpses would be even better.") so the support seems to be there.
If I had gone back it is no doubt in my mind that I would have gotten
the ordinance stricken from the books as overbroad and unconstitutional.
>In addition, my basic point stands: Anyone who does a do-it-yourself
>backyard freezing is risking backlash from locals, negative publicity, and
>a furor with unknown consequences. I think it is grossly iresponsible to
>encourage anyone to take this path.
If you had followed my grand fathers case you would have known that it hardly
fits your description of a back yard case.
He was frozen in Norway with the permission of the next of kin, and with no
objection from the authorities, which had been consulted. He was then flown to
Trans Times facility in Oakland.
This was in January 1990 at the time cryonics was under attack in California,
and I checked with the local health authorities who had no objection to me
flying him in. I even used politcal contacts on the federal level in Denver, to
influence politicians on the federal level in California to secure that there
would be no problem with the local coroner.
The arrival in Oakland was covered by a TV Channel in San Fransisco with uplink
to Channel 4 in Denver. And the event received serious coverage from both the
Denver Post and the Rocky Mountain News and the local Boulder Daily Camera,
My grandfather was stored at Trans Time's facility in Oakland for 4 years.
One of those years I was on the board ofn directors at Trans Time.
At Christmas time 1993 I had come so far with my nice concrete facilty in
Colorado that I decided to move him there. We expected to have him on dry ice a
few weeks, until the arrival of an electrical freezer a client had ordered. This
freezer was to store my grand father and the friend of a client. The client's
friend turned out to be too large for the freezer and we had to cancel the
electrical freezer and go for dry ice until a liquid nitrogen dewar could be
installed.
I was about to order the latter when the immigration authorities suddenly
decided to violate due process and kick me out of the country while my case was
still in court. And the rest is histrory.
>First get the zoning permission;
>then make sure your venture is properly capitalized (with sufficient
>funds for indefinite patient storage); and THEN do what you want to do.
>
As to our property in Nederland Colorado this has a mountain residental zoning
that also permits churches.
The town had no rules against cryonics, and I stayed firmly within the existing
zoning.
The plans I submitted and got approved stated in big letters in the title that
this was a residence and cryonics facility.
I developed roads and utilities for 5 lots, and tried at the time to encourage
other cryonisists to buy the other lots inexpensively at $ 10,000 a piece which
the owners wanted to sell these for. No cryonisists responded, and as soon as I
had put in the joint road and utilities, several of the other lots were sold for
$ 30,000 to $ 40,000 by their owners. All within 1 to 2 years
of the time these could have been bought for $10,000 each. Several neigboring
lots that had been available for $9,000 each sold for twice as much as soon as I
had put the area on the map.
We have not been found guilty of any zoning violation as far as cryonics are
concerned.
My mother was however fined for having lived on the site before it was
completed.
The place was funded, by equity and conventional construction loan.
The facility had walls, roof, windows, doors and utilities.
I had lined up one client and was in the process of lining up more.
A dry ice box was built and an electrical freezer was funded and ordered.
And a two story area is still standing there waiting for its planned bigfoot
dewar.
I expected the deportation appeal to the supreme court to take a year,
something it usually does and had calculated to complete and hand over to others
the facility during the appeal process.
In a more rights respecting nation my due process appeals rights would have been
respected and I would have been able to complete the facility and
organized others to run this before the final deportation decission would have
been taken,
in stead I was kicked out during the appeals process and never got a chance to
take this to the supreme court.
>> Let us clear up a few things:
>> Cryonics and its reputation is not the ultimate goal here:
>> Individual life-extension is the goal, cryonics is just the means.
>
>If actions by an individual raise the general risk of backlash against
>cryonics, the individual is not acting responsibly. All it takes is one
>controversial case, to encourage legislators to do what they most enjoy
>doing: Creating legislation. A nationwide ban on cryonics could eliminate
>the future chances for dozens of current patients at existing facilities.
>Any cryonicist who pursues his own vision without always remembering the
>vulnerability of those patients is creating a small but significant risk.
>
Nothing I have done can be said to have put other cryonics organizations at
risk.
As a matter of fact I, my friends and contacts(and with almost no assistance
from other cryonisists) were able to stop the town board in Nederland Colorado.
And cryonics has not been banned in Boulder county or Colorado.
As a matter of fact it is safer and has more media support, business sponsors
and political support there than in many other states.
The two suspensions I have organized from Norway of my grand father and of Fr ya
Hindal presently at CI, have not led to any attempt at banning the export of
corpses from Norway for cryonic suspension in the United States.
I am presently in the process of contacting local politicians and governemnt
offices here in Norway, so to find a suitable location that will pose no zoning
problerms.
I have spoken to a research park, that is willing to rent me space, and where
there is no zoning problems, it is however quite expensive. I am speaking to
another business park today.
My plans are long run, I am working on a venture plan for setting up a cryonics
facility here in Norway. I am working on a list of all relevant expenses and
suppliers.
And setting up a business plan so to better attracts the necessary investors and
clients.
Only if I get all the pieces together so that I see that I will have access to
the necessary supplies, location and permits, will I ask Elizabeth to verify
that she can afford what she has said that she can afford. If her statements
hold water, then she will afford to rent a small facility and install a 4 person
bigfoot or two person double size cryostar freezer, and pay the annual upkeep.
Both a dewar and the electrical freezer will have added capacity, and as soon as
one or more other clients are found, what such clients pay will be invested to
pay for the annual upkeep.
e.g. 3 other cryo tank lots could possibly raise USD 100,000 using CI's pricing.
and 5% return above inflation would pay for the annual upkeep.
As a comparison we pay about $ 8,000 a year for having my grandfather on dry ice
in Colorado. If we moved him to Norway, that amount alone would cover the
annual upkeep of the bigfoot.
However, I am not pressing Elizabeth to do anything, it is she who is writing me
many times a day and telling me to get going on the facility.
if she backs out that is o.k for me. I was planning this facility long before I
heard about her, and wasn't planning on her at all, when it comes to its
implementation.
>> Second: bad publicity is not my experience at all. I have had enormous
>> amount of positive publicity for as long as I have been involved in
>> cryonics.
>>
>> When we first froze my grandfather, we got serious and positive
>> coverage by the Colorado media, even a front page article and colour
>> picture in The Denver post. And the Colorado and Norwegian media has
>> followed up ever since.
>
>Indeed. I invite anyone to go to Google and search for "Trygve Bauge" to
>find out how seriously his activities have been received. Here's a review
>of the movie that was made of his case:
>
>"I can only say that "Grandpa's In The Tuff Shed" is the funniest movie
>I've ever seen. Trygve Bauge, currently deported from Nederland, to his
>native Norway, for threatening to hijack an aeroplane (freedom of speech
>is in his constituitional rights)
Don't believe everything you read I did not threaten to hijack anything. A
threat is not in the eye of the beholder. I made a spur of the moment vitty
remark at the airport. I won the criminal case. I counter sued the airline and
the police. Airline employees and the police conspired to have me railroaded
and deported before I could win redress. Protectionism goes hand in hand with
the police state. Protectionism is a means used by criminal citizens in their
struggle to fend off rights respecting aliens.
>is the operator of the "Joyful Life
>Extension" program. "Cryonics" facilities consist of a hole in the hill
>behind Trygve's castle-like (it has steel beams in the roof) home in
>Nederland.
The person writing this has not understood that the castle like facility is the
unfinished state of the art cryonics facility, and that the whole in the hill
and Tuff shed behind it is just an improvisation necessitated by the
protectionism that prevents me from returning and completing the main facility!
It is interesting to note that the main concrete residence and cryonics facility
is seen as awe inspiring and is described as castle like, but I guess that
doesn't fit Charles Platts attempt at describing my effort as a backyard shed.
The main facilty is built with one of the most beautiful mountain views you can
imagine,
and the whole in the hill behind it mentioned above is actually something we
excavated to install a state of the art blast shelters, the steel reinforcement
for the latter is still laying around at the site.
The steel beams in the roof, allude to the fact that the facility is built
totally fire proof, with concrete, steel, glass, rock and fire proof insulation
materials etc.
We basically have a concrete floor, a light concrete second story floor, and
metal studs, and a vaulted reinforced concrete roof. the facility combines 8
readily available standard fire, earthquake and storm proof off the shelf
technologies, in an innovative way.
>The following websites only prove that the internet attracts
>every sort of wierdo."
What web sites?????
Are you refering to my pictures from the construction steps in the house I built
or my designs for life-extension centers than can be built with similar
technology?
then I suggest people visit Trygve's Meta Portal www.trygve.bauge.com
and think for themselves.
>
>Or try this from a Denver travel site:
>
>"Trygve Bauge, the young Norwegian who used his inheritance to cryonically
>freeze his dead grandfather for revival at a later date, is another who's
>helping to keep alive Nederland's eccentric reputation. The Scandinavian
>hit newspapers when he was deported in 1994 but left the old man on ice --
>dry ice -- at Bauge's Nederland home. Two Boulder sisters, who tout
>themselves as the distaff Coen brothers of "Fargo" fame, recently made a
>film about the episode called "Grandpa's in the Tuff Shed," with a title
>song by the same name."
The movie title has the following explanation:
The Tuff shed company donated a huge sturdy shed that my grandfather is stored
in, and they also paid to have the movie made with a $ 5,000 grant.
They are one of several Colorado companies sponsing his cryonic storage.
Another sponsor is radio station Fox, that annually pays $ 1,000 to sponsor my
Boulder Polar Bear Club, and co sponsored the shed with Tuff shed. The radio
station just sponsored the celebration of my grandfathers 101st birthday, with
cake, banners and champagne.
>Speaking as someone who was struggled for years to disassociate cryonics
>from words such as "weird" and "eccentric," I have to say that anyone who
>generates this kind of publicity is undermining my efforts.
I don't see how being sponsored by local companies in any way can be negative???
As I see it new ventures is what that is needed in cryonics.
>> It clearly is. Most cryonic ventures I know of started out as do it
>> yourself procedures. I haven't seen any cryonic venture that so far
>> has been initiated by and spun off from any established fortune 500
>> company.
>As you well know, all modern cryonics organizations operate within local
>zoning, health, and other regulations, and are scrupulous (to varying
>degrees) about the cases which they accept. Which brings us back to the
>beginning.
I too operate within the local zoning, health and other regulations.
I do however aim at accepting all human biological remains, independent of how
rotten these might be. I do not promise to bring anyone back, I just want to
provide the service of storing remains for anyone that wants such stored. I let
it be up to the client to decide if they want something stored. I just store it.
Monopolies have a tendency to censor who they let use their service and what
service that each get. I aim at letting the customer decide for him or her self
what service they want to buy.
As I see it the challenge of cryonics is to create still better health from
still worse premises, dead or alive. But only by storing the samples can these
be brought back to life. If no one is willing to store them , then the future
won't have anything to make the most out of either.
>> Cryonics is just the means, and I am not going to stop doing what I
>> see as right, just because someone is afraid that it might hurt the
>> reputation of cryonics.
>
>I don't expect you to change your beliefs or behavior in any way
>whatsoever. I just want to inform _other people_ of your past
>achievements, and possible future consequences.
>
Thus for the record:
I have set the world record for icebathing 5 times over the years.
I have founded and built one of the largest organized ice bathing clubs in the
United States: the Boulder Polar Bear Club, and the largest Norwegian Icebathing
Club.
I have organized 2 cryonic suspensions and assisted in a few others,
3 people presently in suspension would probably not have been suspended without
my assistance.
I have designed several nuclear war proof life-extension centers, and almost
completed the construction of one of my models (the castle like facility in
Colorado)..
I have organized a political action comittee that successfully lobbied for the
full rehabilitation of a large public housing project here in Oslo Norway,
I have won several legal cases and political battles, and also lost a few,
I am an objectivist, in favour of freedom of travel and trade and not willing to
ask permission to do what others have no right to deny me.
I have been in the media thousands of times over the years and on TV several
hundred times for icebathing, cryonics, my facility designs, my political and
legal battles, my health building courses etc etc.
I have been on world wide TV at least 3 times. twice for setting world records
in icebathing and once because a cryonics program I participated in got
widespread airing.
I have received national media coverage in The US many times over and the same
in Norway,
as well as in England and Brazil and have been covered by most any media in
Colorado and in Oslo. I am in the media about 45 times a year. And yes, I
usually get paid for my TV appearances.
Two commercial short movies have been made about periods in my life.
Yes, a small part of the media coverage has been negative and erroneous, but
when you are that many times in the media, you learn to take it all in stride,
and the positive far outweighs the negative.
And I am foregoing a Summer vacation with sailing, (yes I know how to sail),
just to assist in this case.
>Of course, if you are serious about setting up a properly planned and run
>cryonics facility in Norway, I wish you the best. But this is not what you
>were recommending to your correspondent in Australia.
>____
I wasn't???????
If you had read all the 50 or so posts I have posted on the Australian case,
and if you had known what work I have put in prior to this case,
you would not have jumped to such a conclusion.
Basically what I have reccomended is for Elizabeth to get together with all
other interested cryonists and take the proper steps to set up a good cryonics
facility in Australia, using her own father as a test case, and thereby at least
making it easier for other people to be frozen under better conditions in
Australia. That itself is a worthwhile effort, even if her father never are
brought back.
Since she has problems getting permissions in Australia, I offered to see if I
could complete a venture plan, and set up a facility here in Norway, thereby
making it easier for people in Europe to be frozen under better conditions than
today.
I have repeatedly told her that most likely nothing can ever be done to restore
her father,
but if she still insists, then I will still see if I can create her a facility
and long run storage for the price she can afford.
That is a challenge that might benefit many of us.
>
>George Smith asks:
>
>> Charles, why don't you explain here for the benefit of everyone why you
>> believe this effort is "bad publicity" for cryonics as a whole?
>
>Because I believe that for cryonics to achieve real growth, it has to lose
>its "wacky" status, and must be pursued on some sort of rational basis,
>supported by known orthodox science. Moreover I believe that the "wacky"
>status actually endangers the field to some extent, since it is an
>invitation for regulation. In the past, some attempts to maintain people
>in storage on an underfunded, improvised basis, have resulted in
>catastrophe. The case in New Jersey where the dewar filled with water that
>promptly turned to ice, and the case at Chatsworth, come to mind. The
>latter generated a lot of publicity. Obviously the chances of failure are
>greater if fewer people are involved.
>
I have posted this case to the cryonet, so to get more people involved.
And several have responded and expressed interest in getting a full service
provider in Europe/Norway.
At the present cost of facility rental, the big foot dewar and liquid nitrogen,
the facility will not be under funded. If all 4 spaces in the dewar are sold,
the upkeep of the facility will be self financing, without further needs for
additional funds, in the mean time she and I separately, both seem able to fund
the annual upkeep of the facility, thereby not saying that we can't seek more
funding and expand the facility, just saying that the cost of maintaining one
dewar will be accounted for if Elizabeth pays what she has indicated that she
will pay, which still remains to be seen.
I won't accept her father until she pays adequately to secure continued longrun
storage,
and I won't ask her to pay anything until I am ready to receive him, and know
that all the facilities, supplies and permits are available.
>> At the same time I have a very hard time not feeling supportive for someone
>> trying to beat the Grim Reaper and wish them success.
>
>Sure, I agree. But if we read a little cryonics history, we find a lot of
>early cases which were screwed up badly, with the best of intentions. Ask
>Curtis Henderson some time, about his experience crawling into a dewar to
>chip the ice out from around the human body therein. The dewar was in the
>back of a truck outside his home in Long Island, at the time. Fortunately
>the neighbors didn't notice, or were so horrified, they pretended not to
>notice.
>
>--CP
Most cryonic screw ups I am aware of, happened because people were hiding from
others what they were doing or not doing. e.g. chatsworth, the canadian grave
robbing etc. etc.
I like to do things in the open, for the best possible oversight. that is why I
am posting everything about this Australian case to the cryonet, and inviting
everyone to come with their input, and assure that all obstacles are faced up to
and overcome.
Yes, there will be a check to see that the zoning and all local permits are
adequate.
Yes there will be a public list of expenses and public accounting, and anyone
that think that the funding is not adequate will be invited to protest or to
invest. etc etc.
But now I am going to get some sleep.
Answering all the letters from other cryonisists, have taken its time, it is now
6am in the morning here in Oslo, and I will have to postpone visiting the
business park and the bank until tomorrow. Answering all the letters means yet
another days delay in securing a facility for Elizabeth.
Maybe people on the cryonet could start brainstorming on how to assist in the
creation of a facility here in Norway, for a change?
Sincerely,
Trygve Bauge
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