X-Message-Number: 16768
Date: Sun, 01 Jul 2001 18:51:15 +1000
From: Simon Carter <>
Subject: They keep on coming ...
References: <>

The nascent Trygve and 'Elizabeth' cult appears to have at least one
devotee in Australia. A Chris Benatar wrote to me regarding my CryoNet
post http://www.cryonet.org/archive/16725 . I have decided to reply
publicly in this forum.


> Subject: Assumptions
> Date: Thu, 28 Jun 2001 12:36:24 +1000
> From: 
> To: 
> see *** comments
> Message #16725
> Date: Wed, 27 Jun 2001 18:51:35 +1000
> From: Simon Carter <>
> Subject: Re: Trygve's response to Simon (#16703)
> Hi Trygve,
> > If you know any other Melbourne cryonisists , please let me know
> > of where to contact these.
> I understand you (and 'Elizabeth') have already contacted some of the
> cryonicists in Australia, in particular Melbourne, and that they have
> chosen not to respond or suggested that this is not a case with which
> they wish to be involved.
> *** I believe you might be refering to me amongst others. I have been
> discussing the matter with Elizabeth through email. Neither of the above
> statements are 100% true. I have been responding and I have taken certain
> intrest in the case.

I'm not referring to you. I'm referring to "cryonicists in Australia, in
particular Melbourne". I don't know you or anything about your
involvement in cryonics. Have you made arrangements with a cryonics
provider - or even bothered to join the Australian group, the Cryonics
Association of Australia? I'd be interested in your definition of a
cryonicist. Don't be shy, introduce yourself.

> Yes, I know all the cryonicists in Melbourne but am unable to provide
> you with their contact details without their express permission. You
> should know that sveral of us have recently discussed the case via email
> with none of those participating wishing to be involved. In summary, our
> consensus was that this is a hopeless case, likely to lead to grief for
> all involved and continuing sorrow. The possibility that 'Elizabeth' has
> ulterior motives is also a concern.
> *** I don't really care if there is "no possibility of revival" since I am
> not in a position to judge future technology and existing technology cannot
> tell me definitivly the level of information loss, the rate of loss or the
> level of redundancy. Simply put, it is all speculation - ALL OF IT (yes the
> dreaded caps) even best case suspensions. Discrediting Elizabeth is
> discrediting yourself.

I don't see what you appear to quote above. What I said is rather
different: "this is a hopeless case, likely to lead to grief for all
involved and continuing sorrow. The possibility that 'Elizabeth' has
ulterior motives is also a concern".

'Her' presentation, frequent bizarre emails, and lack of response, even
when asked repeatedly, made people suspicious about 'her' real motives
and identity. Don't you understand that?

> *** If I were to be frozen in such a state and in such a manner, I would
> rate my chances of revival with even 10% of my memories and personality
> intact as near but not quite zero. In other words the probability of
> preferred revival is vanishingly low to the point some would consider it
> zero but in a mathematical sense there is still an incredibly small chance.

Uh, mebbe, I guess I don't quite follow. Would you care to be more

> *** Never the less, I would still choose for my poor state remains to be
> frozen. The reason for this is that I have nothing to lose. If I can never
> be revived then I have lost nothing since I was dead anyway and therefore
> unable to benefit from the money anyway. My instruction at death will
> include a minimum amount (percentage) of intact memories demonstrated as
> retrievable before reanimation. This will apply regardless of how good a
> suspension I get.

That's all very well but one has to admit that this case is more than a
little unusual - we have a non consenting three month old corpse for a

> > Elizabeth called me early on and spoke to me for about one hour
> > on the phone.
> >
> > She has sent me an e-mail, address and phone number.
> Thanks for the info. Are you not concerned? You hint of having
> suspicions.
> *** How do you relate your comment to the sentences above it?

Trygve's comment (below) "the address seems a little fishy" is why I
said "You hint of having suspicions". I asked whether he was concerned
because it strikes me that this information (even with a
telephone conversation) seems a pretty weak basis on which to embark on
an accelerated project to help 'Elizabeth'.

> > (the address seems a little fishy, and some of her letters
> > look like she has copied in paragraphs from others, maybe
> > based on e-mails from other cryonisists.)
> Well, I don't buy cutting and pasting as a reason for improvement in
> 'her' written English skills. Its just too good and too sudden. I cite
> the email at the end of your post: http://www.cryonet.org/archive/16683
> *** So do you have a degree in language skills of foreign nationals?

More appropriately, do you have any skills whatsoever in dealing with
traumatised and mentally ill individuals? Don't you find it unusual that
'Elizabeth' seems to have declined the offer to speak to someone in her
native language?

> Perhaps you have some personal experience to call upon? From my perspective
> I see someone that she is struggling the best she can with a second
> language. My experience comes from my Russian wife who also had great
> difficulty with English at first. I wrote and recieved hundreds of
> letters/emails from her and they were not disimilar in the sort of mistakes
> made and the improvement and then loss in quality. This change was due to
> effort put in, tiredness, help from others and the difficulty of the
> language used.

Well, that's part of the mystery isn't it? Veronica Sullivan asked for
her native tongue a week ago. No response.

> ... and 'she' even found out how to turn off the caps lock in that one!
> *** Sarcasm, really not very mature! Have you ever tried typing on a
> Cyrillic keyboard? It is not uncommon not to look at the screen as you are
> typing using an unfamiliar keyboard. Once you look at the screen and see
> the wrong case, you are not going to be keen to retype the whole lot. Not
> everyone knows how to change case on existing text.

Actually Chris, I don't really see what personal experience has got to
do with it. Myself and others, quite reasonably, became suspicious as to
the identity and motives of 'Elizabeth' and sought more information. It
wasn't forthcoming.

And you know , Chris, I don't want to get overly personal - but I'd be
inclined to be a little more circumspect about my private life, my mail
order bride, and whatever communication difficulties you both had during
that email courtship when first making contact with someone.

> ... and at the end of this one: http://www.cryonet.org/archive/16687
> (its back to form with the capitalisation but the
> English is markedly better than the earlier efforts)
> *** See 2 comments above

See Olaf Henny's post of yesterday: http://www.cryonet.org/archive/16752

> > Otherwise she appeared more calm, sincere and straightforward
> > than many other distressed people pursuing post mortem
> > suspensions that I have spoken to over the years.
> The calm seems in contrast to many of 'her' emails.
> *** It would appear that she is understandably traumatised by the loss of
> her father and is experiencing mood swings.

It is now several months since her father died. Perhaps if she is
traumatised you could suggest she seek professional counseling rather
than attempt to 'help' in your own unique and unprofessional manner. 

> > Many seems to lie about when their relative died and what
> > he or she died from.
> > Elizabeth volunteered herself, in our very first conversation
> > that her father had died several months prior.
> Now I'm getting confused! Trygve, are you are accusing 'Elizabeth' of
> "lying"? That's my job, mate!
> *** Try reading what Trygve wrote again. Perhaps you missed it or maybe the
> broken English is confusing you so here is a "translation into aussie":
> It is Trygve's experience that in OTHER cases, people lie about the length
> of time that the loved one has been dead and lie about the cause of death.
> Elizabeth on the other hand volunteered the truth (despite it being a
> negative truth) in the very first conversation Trygve had with her. The
> truth that she revealed to Trygve on that FIRST conversation was that her
> So it seems that Trygve is actually saying the opposite ie that she showed
> considerable honesty by offering the information upfront unlike oher cases.

Chris dear, I'd rather get it directly from Trygve or 'Elizabeth'.
You've got to admit it can get a little hard to follow what some of
these folk are trying to say.

> I've been perusing the archives tho' and think I know what you are
> saying. 'Elizabeth', despite numerous requests from several people was
> quite unwilling to provide detail about 'her' supposed father's death. I
> recall a date in early June being mentioned at first (but don't have the
> time to search right now - is this correct?). However in
> http://www.cryonet.org/archive/16498 you state that her supposed father
> died in March: "Seems like her 58 year old father died of cancer on
> March the 19th. And has been burried since then."
> *** I challenge you to find your claimed reference where Elizabeth stated
> her father died in June!!!! Elizabeth had no problem answering my politly
> phrased questions including details about her fathers death.
> So just what is going on here? Just when did Daddy supposedly die?
> *** As stated by Trygve, he died of cancer on the 19th of March 2001.

Your bold challenge is not necessary. As you can see I was uncertain as
to the date and asked Trygve for confirmation. I may have been confused
with the date when Trygve first raised the issue on CryoNet. Given that
dad supposedly died on the 19th of March 2001 I'm curious as to why it
took three months for 'Elizabeth' to raise the issue.



> > She has repeatedly asked me to give her an account number that she
> > can pay in money on, something I have not yet done.
> I have noticed 'her' anxiety, nay insistence, on getting your account
> number and advise caution (I particularly refer to the two emails
> above). If 'Elizabeth' is a journalist what happens then? "GOTCHA!:
> Money grubbing body freezers try cheating grieving daughter out of life
> savings?" Please Trygve, you may be safe in Norway but there are a bunch
> or cryonicists in Australia who do not need that sort of attention. Your
> desire to set up a cryonics facility may be well intended but the
> history of cryonics indicates that such facilities need to be supported
> by a decent sized and committed organisation to have any long term
> chance of survival.
> *** If I were in Elizabeths position I may also wish to get the funds
> transferred as soon as possible so as to expedite matters. She is acting in
> a manner consistent with her desperate desire to try save her father. Trial
> by media is not something I am going to spend my whole life running from -
> of course you can if you want to. I'll fight back.

Stirring and impressive words Chris, but so easy to type. I admire the
financial and emotional resources you must have, but I don't think you
have the first idea of what trial by media means. Furthermore, I think
you are straying dangerously close to trial by judge and jury. Your
actions could easily be construed as crossing the boundary of fraudulent

> > All my services so far has been free of charge and done from
> > good will.
> I'm not doubting that. I am saying that you could end up looking foolish
> and damaging the cause of cryonics in Australia and elsewhere.
> *** See my comment about fear of media below

Chris, you've easily convinced me that you lack any fear of looking
foolish. I'm just sorry that I can't stop you damaging the cause of
cryonics in Australia and elsewhere.

> Wouldn't it be better to concentrate on your longer term goal of helping
> others to set up a European facility rather than spend effort on this
> case?
> *** If he is looking from his own personal perspective then he would
> probably be better off without this case but I think he is trying to do
> what HE feels is RIGHT, not what you or me or the media think. If he feels
> it is the right thing to do then he would be putting himself first if he
> were to avoid this case and that does not appear to be consistent with his
> character. I hope someone cares that much if I should miss the (cryonics)
> boat.

I'd prefer that common sense prevailed and you discarded emotive

> > So far I have posted her name and e-mail address to the cryonet.
> > I could post her phone number and regular address,
> > if she has no objection to this.
> I think several of us would be interested. Strangely 'Elizabeth' has not
> responded to either myself or Veronica Sullivan's request for further
> information regarding herself:
> *** Would you reply to anyone who deliberatly wrote such a sarcastic and
> pathetic troll? Your actions in writing this are nothing less than that of
> an 8 year old spoilt brat.

Hee! Hee!

Yes, Yes, YES!! I'm so wonderfully horrid! I'm the nastiest boy in town!

> You deliberatly go out of your way to make fun
> of her english skills, her typing skills, her spelling skills and her use
> of case. You then ask a barrage of questions and follow it up with what
> sounds like a demand for a reply. Not a single word of consideration or
> compassion - is that a reflection of your personality?

No, its a reflection of dealing with the mewlings of people like
yourself and Trygve who think that trying to preserve any part of a
putrefying corpse, 3 months maturing in the warm ground of Melbourne,
has anything to do with cryonics. Its a reflection of my extreme
eagerness to stay well away from such folk and their crazed notion that
anyone in their right mind would want to have anything to do with them.

One of the reasons I have entered this thread is to divorce myself and
other Australian cryonicists from the issue. I'll make it quite plain:
what Trygve (and apparently yourself) are doing is not cryonics by any
stretch of the imagination. To quote from one email I received: "Taking
tens of thousands of dollars from people to dig up their months dead
relatives for life in the future is in the same league as selling
tickets for rides on alien spaceships hidden behind comets. Even worse."

I'd bear that in mind, Chris. What you and Trygve want is a cult - not

How is anybody supposed to take this seriously, when 'her' email is
barely readable and 'Elizabeth' has not revealed her first language so
that someone who speaks her language could respond to her?

> *** It is to your own detriment that you write such a letter - others will
> judge you on such actions. I already did.

I see I'm not the only one to make judgments based on email content.
We'll have to get together over a beer someday, I suspect our
intolerance's would match quite well.

> *** As for giving you Elizabeths regular address or phone number, I
> personally won't gve it to you since I don't believe that would be in her
> intrest to recieve further abuse from you.

Do you think that your involvement with 'Elizabeth' is any less damaging
than my comments?

You 'personally' won't give me her regular address or phone number? Let
me 'personally' assure you of my lack of desire in becoming involved in
this waste of effort and prolongation of misery, beyond establishing
bona fides and urging 'her' to seek professional help.

You don't believe that providing such information to me would be in her
interest? Try not to get overly possessive or emotionally involved and
get a professional counselor involved - instead of blundering in.
Veronica Sullivan asked quite nicely for further information a week ago
http://www.cryonet.org/archive/16657 and has yet to hear, perhaps
'Elizabeth' could provide this information to her.

Trygve however seems more open minded about 'Elizabeth' contacting me
although I note that 'she' does appear to be dallying about subscribing
to CryoNet: http://www.cryonet.org/archive/16730

It would appear that others have suspicions tho':

But I note that 'Elizabeth' has not been in contact with Trygve for a
couple of days: http://www.cryonet.org/archive/16729

Indeed Trygve himself was uncharacteristically absent from the last
CryoNet digest. What will the morrow bring?

> > It is my impression that she had contacted Alcor and had been turned
> > down by these before I heard of her.
> It is Alcor's right to choose whether to take non-members. You are
> surely aware of the risk of doing so and respect their right?
> *** It is also a risky road to take when it seems plain that it was not
> refused because of the state of the body. Alcor will store decomposing
> bodies of signed up members and if my understanding is correct has already
> done so. If Alcor is going to start making arbitrary judgements on the
> matter, it could end up with people being denied based on other issues such
> as nationality. What about if a convicted murderer requests to be frozen
> after his execution, will Alcor allow membership and then freeze him/her?
> What level of criminal history will Alcor draw the line at?  What other
> things might Alcor find ethically repugnant? What about political refugees
> or people like Salmon Rushdie? Would they turn him away because the
> newspapers would have a field day. What if someone accuses you of something
> of which you are 100% innocent, rape, murder, pedophilia or necrophilia etc
> trial by media and kiss away your chance of suspension. Fear of publicity
> should NOT be the determining factor!

I'd like to refer your questions in the paragraph above to Alcor and
request an official response. I understand that Alcor no longer accepts
life insurance policies written outside the USA for funding cryonic
suspension - an extremely short sighted decision in my opinion.

> > I have not yet verified her wherabouts or if she can afford
> > what she claims, An established cryonics provider would of
> > course do that as its first step.
> I'm not sure of your point here Trygve. I think you badly need to verify
> her wherabouts, at the very least.
> *** It would appear that he has limited resources and would appreciate any
> help he can get from the so called "cryonics community".

This may be so but Trygve and yourself should appreciate that the
"cryonics community" also has limited resources and is unlikely to offer
much help in a case such as we are discussing. Furthermore, I think you
have the wrong impression of the "cryonics community". It is not some
fantasy like commune, where blow-ins can turn up with a three month old
crisis and expect much help. The "cryonics community" cannot afford it.
The "cryonics community" has been built over many years of effort,
learning from mistakes. It needs protection from your sort. Just how
much effort have you put into the "cryonics community"?

> ...
> ...
> > I have been in touch with the Australian consulate in Norway,
> > so that they can assist Elizabeth, once I am ready to organize
> > a facility, I will ask the Norwegian consulate in Australia
> > and a local bank to assist in veryfing what it is of
> > value to verify, before signing any contract.
> Mate, maaate, take it from me: I've never found the buggers to be of any
> use. Help from an Australian embassy or consulate? Sheeesh!!
> *** Judging by your email to Elizabeth, I am hardly surprised that you
> haven't had too much sucess, perhaps a course in communication skills is in
> order. I found them to be very helpful and friendly when approached the
> right way.

Again, that's the issue. 'Elizabeth' asks for help and does not respond
when offered assistance such as communicating with 'her' in 'her' native

You know Chris, something tells me that Trygve is going to need
communication skills of a quite unique order when approaching officials
of any nation with this stunt. Skills of an unparalled degree, unlikely
to be provided in any communication course I can envisage.

As for my taking a course in communication skills? You have a point
there. Perhaps it was the 'hijack' threat towards Qantas? Like Trygve I
have suffered from officialdom run amok. "Don't believe everything you
read I did not threaten to hijack anything. A threat is not in the eye
of the beholder. I made a spur of the moment vitty remark at the
airport. I won the criminal case. I counter sued the airline and the
police. Airline employees and the police conspired to have me railroaded
and deported before I could win redress. Protectionism goes hand in hand
with the police state. Protectionism is a means used by criminal
citizens in their struggle to fend off rights respecting aliens."

> Look, thanks again for being upfront regarding what 'Elizabeth' has told
> you but I think I've made my opinion quite clear. While I'll read your
> reply please don't expect me to engage in a daily exchange for long.
> *** Your response or otherwise is entirely up to you.

Sonny, I don't need you to tell me that. I'm just indicating that there
is a limit to my ability or desire to respond to the sheer amount of
material that can be posted by Trygve, and I suspect, folks like

> *** My involvment with Elizabeth has been positive to try to help her. I
> have done the right things for her and will continue to try to help her. I
> do not support the suspension of her father but only because I believe that
> she is emotionally too unstable to rationalise her decisions (based on
> information you have not seen).

If that is the case (and thank you for confirming my suspicions about
'her' ability to make rational decisions), and you have established a
good rapport with 'Elizabeth', helping 'her' to do anything other than
seek professional help is grossly irresponsible. I don't see how you can
claim that your involvement has been positive and that you have done the
right things for this person. You have no idea what you are dealing

> I will not stand in her or Trygve's way - I
> simply will not assist is freezing her father. I will still be activly
> involved in helping her to arrange suspensions for her self, her mother and
> her sister if she chooses including setting up a suspension facility here
> or overseas if the other organisations refuse them membership.

You are behaving quite unethically. By your own admission you have
acknowledged that 'Elizabeth' is unable to make rational decisions. Its
more than probable that 'she' is mentally ill. You show a child-like
naivety in appearing not to understand the consequences of your actions,
including your desire to sign up the rest of the family and set up a
suspension facility in Australia.

> I do not
> believe she is lying - I know more about her than you do because I have
> written POLITELY to her and recieved several responses and done a bit of
> simple research. This leads me to believe that she is not a journalist.

You used the on-line Australian White Pages I take it?

> Your actions so far ave been very VERY unAustralian.

Perhaps we could entertain readers with a debate on the nature of being
Australian? I think there have been more off topic threads on CryoNet!
Perhaps you would like to kick off and explain how "very VERY
unAustralian" I ave been? I fear you may only convince them of the high
number of feeble minded freakasoids residing in our golden land girt by

> Long life,
> *** provided you fit Simons and the medias criteria

A cheap shot Chris.

This affair is a tragedy and it is unfortunate that you have been caught
up in the whole sorry saga. I'd advise discretion, Chris.


Long life,


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