X-Message-Number: 16814
From: "Trygve Bauge" <>
References: <>
Subject: Re: Trygve's reply to Ramzy
Date: Mon, 2 Jul 2001 14:25:13 +0200

Hi Ramsy, thanks for your private letter,

You haven't labeled it confidential,
and I think it might be of general interest,
thus I am posting my response to Cryonet and Cryonics Europe.

"ramzy ramzy" <> wrote:

> Hi, Trygve Bauge,
> Thanks for your rapid reply, but you forgot to discuss important point in
> previous message. I hope to know your explanation for non-existence of
> service provider in Europe, especially U.K. although there are many
> cryonicists in it. The most famous journal in cryobiology (Cryobiology) is
> in U.K. I predicted some reason, but I am not sure (my reason: There is no
> cryonicist cryobiologist in U.K. to determine a protocol for
> and trains the others without need to training in USA.).

I pass your question on to the European cryonics list,
maybe the cryonisists in England will know the answer.
Maybe they have not tried to recruit any local cryobiologist,
or maybe they have not found the right approach to recruit one.
Maybe they could try to recruit a cryobiology student,
or even challenge high school students interested in longevity, to study
Or maybe there are laws in England that makes it hard to establish a storage
facility there?
Or maybe liquid nitrogen is expensive,
or maybe there has been no British supension yet,
so that the question has not come up?

I remember that I got one request to freeze a 25 year old British cancer
victim in 1990/1991, I passed the request on to Alcor, and I think the
family even moved his body to the British facility, just to change their
mind and take it back and burry it after they found out that no one could
promise to bring him back in the life time of his girl friend. She had been
the one crying to have him suspended.

The British group will know why they have not yet got any further.
But we should not forget that English cryonisists still are head and
shoulders ahead of the cryonisists in all other European countries.

>  I think that any
> European cryobiologist can suggest some protocol for cryoprotectants
> there is no common protocol for the American companies. What is your mind?

I think that we should encourage cryobiologists to do more studies freezing
individual free floating cells, so to develop protocols for freezing
individual free floating cells, in ways that do not form ice crystals.
Existing protocols seem to form ice crystals, but since the cells are free
floating many of these still survive.
If more people were doing more to develop non toxic vitrification protocols
for free floating cells, we might find that any of these protocols
eventually could be adapted for freezing organs and organisms too. Besides
it seems easier to fast try out thousands of variable protocols on free
floating cells than on whole organs and organisms.

I also think we should try to identify the genes that enable certain
organisms to survive being frozen. And that we should start adding such
genes to animals and then to future generations of human beings.

> About cloning: the cloning can help the nurosuspension. Also, for the
> body, perhaps, we cannot repair the whole body in the future for
> reasons and then we can repair only the brain or the head and use the
> cloning for the rest. If the cryonics will fail, I cannot accept the
> as an alternative. If the cloning will be available, then it can be
> for many times. There are many copies, but the origin is lost. At all, the
> cloning is not the subject.

I think the jury is still out on that question.
I think that we still don't know all there is to know about what constitute
basic awareness, personality, experience of memory, and how memory is
stored. Or for that matter what constitutes a human being and what it will
take to survive as "oneself".

Maybe more than a clone is needed, maybe not. Maybe what else that is
needed, can be recreated from other sources than the rotten corpse, or to
some extent even from the latter.

Furthermore, widespread attempts at recreating clones from dead tissues and
at restoring the memory content from other sources than the corpse itself,
can come in handy in making it easier to fully reanimate and repair the best
cryonic cases too.

> The Australian case gives the chance for the media to attack you, while
> can get support of all European cryonicists far from case of the cryonics
> for a buried person.

I doubt that any cryonic venture even the most ideal such, will ever get the
support of all cryonisists. Cryonisists seem  to be like cats, and as
someone just stated on cryonet:
she had retired from trying to herd cats.

As far as media attacks are concerned. Attacks by other cryonisists seems
much harder than any media attack would ever be. After all journalists
usually have editors that prevent them from writing libel, and asks them to
check their premises etc.

My experience with journalists is that the serious one's are quite
understanding if you are honest, upfront and if you do not claim to be doing
more than you are capable of.
The sensational journalist that just takes your pictures and invent their
own story, and use war types to attack things out of context, are not
usually taken seriously by the rest of the media. Most often they don't
attack you either, but just exagerates what you have said you are doing. I
have been in the media thousands of times, and find the media quite helpful
to open closed doors that those seeking government control, prohibition,
secrecy, monopoly and fearing competition do not want opened.

> Not at all, there is a good side in problem of cryonics for the buried
> person:
> The relatives will not try to bury the person rapidly before arrival of
> cryonics team because they know that the team can take the body even after
> the burial.
> Ramzy

I agree, it couldn't hurt to let the public know that we can dig anyone up.
There are lots of people (relatives, hospital officials and undertakers
without legal standing etc.) that are dead set on getting others in the
Maybe, they would stop up and ask the next of kin what these want for a
so that fewer possible cryonic cases end up being burried.


Trygve Bauge

Rate This Message: http://www.cryonet.org/cgi-bin/rate.cgi?msg=16814