X-Message-Number: 16819
From: "Trygve Bauge" <>
References: <>
Subject: Dewars, electrical freezers, plastination etc..
Date: Mon, 2 Jul 2001 17:22:32 +0200

I received this private mail from den Otter,
he has since posted most of it to the cryonics Europe list,
here are my replies:

"D. den Otter" <> wrote:

> I find your plans for a Norwegian/European cryonics
> facility, as mentioned on Cryonet, most interesting. I
> have tried to do something similar here in the
> Netherlands some time ago, but due to the high costs
> of both LN2 and storage equipment, serious legal
> obstacles and a lack of local interest/support, I've
> had to postpone such plans indefinitely.

What are the manufacturers, suppliers and costs of LN2 in the Netherlands?
Where does one contact such, any web pages?

What are the taxes or surcharges on equipment?

What are the legal obstacles?

And how many people interested in cryonics do you know in the Netherlands,

and where can one get hold of these?

>Maybe it will
> be easier to do this in Norway. Though not as ideal as
> the Netherlands (from my perspective), it would still
> be quite acceptable.
> Unfortunately, I don't have much money to invest right
> now (maybe later), but maybe there are other ways in
> which I can help with your project. In due time I
> would like to rent some space in your dewar(s) for a
> couple of neuros (meaning brain only, in this case).
> These would (presumably) be my parents and dog.
> Pricing is a key issue here: only if the total, or at
> least up front, costs would be significantly less than
> those of CI's services, would it be worthwhile (or
> indeed affordable) to go ahead with this, for me at
> least. But, as pricing depends on many separate
> factors, it is probably too soon to give an accurate
> estimate, I suppose.

Well a minus 140 degree Cryostar electrical freezer cost about USD 12,500
plus shipping and 24 % value added tax, and could easily be used for about 7
heads or even more brains.

Electrical consumption is about 78 kwh a day,

Electricity costs about 21  re per Kwh,  there are also government
surcharges and a cost to be paid to the company owning the electrical grid

Even at total  price of 60  re a Kwh the daily electrical bill would be
about 48 kroner or about USD 5. Annual electrical bill would be about USD

The electrical freezer has a limited warranty, and might have to be replaced
every 10 years.

There is also the facility/room rental. of about USD 1,700 inclusive value
added tax and expenses shared with other renters in the same business park.
(for 10 sq meters a year)

Thus one would have to set aside enough investments to pay for USD 1850 a
in electricity and USD 1700 a year in room rental, and USD 16,000 every 10
years or so
to replace the freezer.  This could of course be divided on 7 people.
e.g. The storage of each head would run USD 500 a year  and USD 2,200 every
10 years
when the freezer is at full capacity.
Otherwise the expenses would have to be split on fewer heads.

With 5 perent return on investment above inflation, one would have to set
aside an initial investment of about USD 14,000 to pay for longrun storage
of a head.

I still think it would be less expensive (but more cumbersome) to use LN2
for heads too.

Of course suspension would have to be paid separately.

I am open to include such an electrical freezer in a Norwegian facility
as soon as someone is interested in renting space in it or investing in it.
I would backfill it with dry ice as a safety meassure.
Evaporation should be low, since the temperature will be much lower than the
evaporation point for dry ice.

> Personally, I think that electric cryogenic storage
> freezers would be better than LN2 or dry ice for this
> type of small, low-budget setup (lower running costs,
> safer and easier to handle than LN2 tanks, only
> electricity needed etc.), at least initially. The
> Ultima II Series Cryogenic Storage Freezers, see (
> http://www.revco-sci.com/catalog/ult/cryo_ultima2.htm
> ) look like the best choice, as they're the only ones
> that go low enough to stop decay "indefinitely"
> (-140*C or so). I understand that you've requested
> more info about pricing etc. from this company --
> could you send me the details (quotes) regarding the
> above models if/when you get them?
> Note that there's an option, according to the Revco
> website, to buy slightly damaged (but technically
> still fully functional and relaible) specimens at
> discount prices. Maybe it would be worthwhile to
> inquire about this as well, if you haven't done so
> already?

On what page did you find that offer, please post the web address.

> Apparently, they have a local branch here in the
> Netherlands (according to the reply you posted on
> Cryonet), so maybe I could go check them out in person
> should you seriously consider buying one.

Please ask them what the shipping cost to Norway would be,
and what the warranties are and what a service contract cost,
it might be useful to have such a piece of information on hand.

> CI's custom-built fiberglass cryostats might be
> another option; their rugged, easy to repair & simple
> construction could be a big plus if you use them under
> relatively primitive conditions. If normal dewars get
> damaged, they're virtually useless, and your money is
> down the drain. Cost would be approx. US 17,000, as
> Robert Ettinger recently mentioned on Cryonet, though
> I'm not sure whether CI would be willing to build a
> dewar on demand. Maybe it could be built over here
> according to their specifications.

Robert has been kind enough to provide me with the name and phone number
for the company that built their latest glassfiber dewar:

Perry Fiberglass--office at 25125 Detroit Rd., Suite 125, Westlake, Ohio


Whether they can do the next one better C.I.  apparently still has to

I still have not found out what kind of repair work for USD 5,000 that C.I.
had to do to their latest dewar before they could use it, nor what the
boiloff rate is.

> I've recently been investigating a completely
> different approach to low-budget preservation of
> brains or whole bodies, by the way: plastination. This
> process of chemical preservation by means of
> polymer-saturation (among other things) could have
> some significant advantages over cryonics, assuming,
> of course, that it doesn't do any fundamental damage
> to the brain's ultrastructure. I've sent some key
> technical questions to the Institute for Plastination
> in Heidelberg, Germany (see
> http://www.plastination.com ), and will hopefully soon
> know more regarding the potential usefulness of this
> process. Some rudimentary plastination info, as well
> as some links & ideas can be found at:
> http://anzwers.org/free/chimaera/plastination.html

How does the plastination process differ from storage in amber:
e.g. storage in resins or for that matter mumification?


Trygve Bauge

> Regards,
> Dalibor den Otter

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