X-Message-Number: 16824
From: "Trygve Bauge" <>

References: <> 

Subject: Trygve's response to Thomas Nord, Re: Bauge and Oz, and burrial in 
permafrost at Svalbard.
Date: Mon, 2 Jul 2001 20:04:00 +0200

"Thomas Nord" <> wrote:

>If this was a mail to me, send it like that first, I aint got it.

Trygve's response:
Thomas, you were the one that let me know about Elizabeth Kostadinova.
When you first let me know about the Australian case,
you forwarded to me a letter Elizabeth had written to  .
I thought   was you, and mailed a few letters to that address
that was intended for you. So who is  ?

It seems you would not have got my letters if I hadn't also posted these to

You say you have not received my letter....
>Only illegal spam from a lunatic case using remailers, who has been
fighting Cryonics in
>sci.cryonics and other groups several times in different names for years,
but had to back
>off every time as we all have seen. I just filter spam off and pity the
poor case.

Who are you refering to? It was included in the same paragraph so that
people could misunderstand and think you were refering to me. So for the
record: I am not sure what you mean with remailers, but I have not been
fighting cryonics in sci.cryonics or other groups. I have not posted to
sci.cryonics for many years now. And I have always been posting under my own
So who is this fellow you are speaking about and what is his name and e-mail
I hope you are not filtering my letters as spam. As a matter of fact I know
you are not, because once I discovered your correct e-mail address
  we have exchanged quite a few valuable letters. But I
thought I would let others know too, that might have misunderstood your
letter. Furthermore I think my posts have been on the topic of cryonics and
within the parameters that cryonet is all about.

>And I had no reply from the lass in Oz in spite of several mails, perhaps
because I'm a
>good checker if folks are for real. I have a close friend in Oz, and know
others there, mail
>me more and I'll take some burden off you. The text doesnt seem to be from
a 29-year >old woman, or she may be in panic.

Please see the letter titled "Assumptions (re the Australian case)", that
was written by Chris Benatar and that I forwarded to the Cryonet and the
cryonics Europe list. Chris apparently got upset because I forwarded that
letter. For some reason he doesn't like to post to cryonet. But it should
answer many of your questions, and many questions by others that
have questioned whether Elizabeth is for real.

If you want to, I could ask Elizabeth if she wants to meet with your friends
in Melbourne,
that might give us an even better way of verifying whether or not she knows
what she is doing and can afford to do what she says she wants done.

>One lunycase I know for shure has that age and know my ties in Oz. I always
check folks
>up a bit before getting to much work looking like timewasting, good for you
perhaps and
>us this time to set things in motion more. But who like to get fooled. When
she calls, call >back. Oz has the white papers on Internet. One of our
friends there some of us know, >works with legal matters a bit and is on

Chris Benatar (in Australia) looked in the phone book and found that
Elizabeth is listed under the same name, address and phone number that she
has given me.

>> Thomas would you consider owning a place in a bigfoot dewar in Norway,
>> or 1/4 of such a dewar?  Cost would be 1/4 of the dewar and its freight
to Norway,
>> and 1/4 of its annual upkeep, room rental and liquid nitrogen
>> If you want to use the spot, then there would of course be the added cost
of freezing
>>someone elsewhere in whatever way you afford, and freigth to Norway and
cost of
>>placing the body in the dewar, and the need to set up some means of
longrun funding
>>and some provisions for what to do if that funding runs out. And some
emergency slush
>>fund and mutual coinsurance policy with other facilities would probably be

>I consider anything but that is a private matter, what is written here some
mentalcases >reads also and refers to the archive later.

I see your point, but still the offer is a public one to everyone, not just
to you, and to reach more people than those one already knows one has to
post it publicly.
You can of course respond in private, and if you are concerned you might
lable your letter confidential. I usually honor such requests, unless I see
some serious reasons for not doing so.

> >And again as I have pointed out for years, check the laws and legislation
first of all if we >>can use it, bend or change it, as checked in Russia and
France etc.

I have spent several weeks talking to at least 10 Norwegian government
and I am getting law texts in the mail every day here.

Seems like we can set up a bio bank (that is a cryo bank) here in Norway,
and at least store whole bodies as long as these are donated to some foreign
organization like ACS or C.I. etc.. Thus my suggestion that Elizabeth join
ACS and I then organize a storage provider that ACS can use here in Norway.
However, before I actually do so, I will in writing explicitly ask the
government offices I have contacted if they have any legal objections.

> >Swedish and Norwegian laws are very similar as far as I know, EU and many
> >the same. Liberal US is another case until you are found.

In the US too it is best to be up front with the local governments and shop
around until you find a government that will welcome you into its business
or industrial parks.
Rather than to insist on your rights in a battle with a government that
wants to take away these.

> >Here (in Sweden) it must be an approved gravesite regulated in law what
that means,
> >not a shed somewhere. The right kind of container may be kept elsewhere,
>> and it seems to be legal to have such a shed within a graveyard.
>>US-style do not work here at all.
I am not sure what you mean with US-style. But if you are refering to my
facility in Colorado. That is legal, and not a zoning violation. It was
zoned mountain residental which permits churches (possibly even graveyards)
and most any business activity out of folks
own garages, much like any industrial park. Mountain homes are typically
more like small farmsteads with their own barns and workshops etc. And as
stated earlier, the intention was not to use sheds, but to build a partially
terrain integrated state of the art concrete
cryonic storage lab.We started on the latter and it is almost finished, and
just standing there
until I can find a way to fight off the protectionisme that presently
prevails in  the United

As to Norway:
It is clear that one can set up bio banks in Norwegian research parks and in
Norwegian business parks, and that this would not constitute a zoning
There are lots of biotechnology companies in the same parks, several already
storing cell samples etc. on liquid nitrogen and in electrical freezers. One
of the other companies even let us store cell samples for a client of mine a
few years ago, both electrically and in liquid nitrogen.

>> Norway has provisions for bio banks.
>> We also have provisions for donating organs,
>> and for donating whole bodies for research,

>We have exactly the same here, I guess Norges love(?) and our lawbook is
very much
>the same being so near to one another side by side like in a dewar.
>Research is for a shorter time at least here, not many years as we need,
check the law
>and all the line down IRL. I have checked with the governement here, the
>the county and some communes.

I have not found any time limit on storage here in Norway.
As a matter of fact the government itself is pushing the idea of
establishing bio banks
e.g. for cell and blood storage etc.
I am only suggesting that they also can use such for storage of murder
victims, bodies donated to patological research and other research,
including a general sample of the population for long run research, (that
then easily could be used to cover the cryonically inclined too.)

>> However, it is legel to ship corpses in and out,

>As anywhere with CI and some hazzles sometimes.

>> We also have the option of perma frost burials at Svalbard and near many
>>of our glaciers.

>If it lasts with the climatechange.

Yes that is a point. Besides perma frost is not cold enough to stop all
further biological breakdown, thus I am not pursuing it.
It might however be an inexpensive way of preserving DNA fragments.
E.g. in case head or brain or other cell samples that are stored in liquid
nitrogen are lost, it could be useful to have stored the rest of the body in
permafrost e.g. in a terrain integrated building that is built as a
permafrost tunnel in an are with deep natural permafrost. Then one could
easily if necessary sample the rest of the body for a new set of DNA
without having to dig  up any corpse, it would just be stored in a chest on
a shelf in a cold tunnel that naturally holds  freezing temperatures year

I have called to find out the regulations for burial at Svalbard.
It seems like they don't have a present burial ground there because it is
too hard to dig in the permafrost. If someone built a private terrain
integrated burrial chamber, using heavy machinery to excavate, then the
bodies could easily be stored without having to dig  a separate whole in the
permafrost for each burrial.
Svalbard has the added advantage that it is an international area, that
anyone of any nationality has access to. From Norway one can still travel
there without a passport,
but you have to show a passport or prove your nationality to get back to
The international treaty of Svalbard from 1925, gives the residents of all
the signing countries the right to come to and use Svalbard. Thus the
country has seen lots of Russian, Swedish and Norwegian mining towns over
the years.
They used to bury people in the permafrost there in the old days. But I
guess grave diggers are lazier these days.

>> >As some may remember, I have asked around in EU and elsewhere, due to my
own >>>relocation too, if its not going to be US.
>> >Norway once belonged to Sweden next door, just as cold in the winter
where the old >>> ones don't like to be.
>> Speak for yourself, I think it gets to warm when it is about 80 degrees

>+80F=27C is just fine as now, we dont wish much more, but elderly dislike
slipping on
>ice and some minus 10-20C as is awful, thats the point.

Never the less many elderly still live in Scandinavia, and get back here
once they get to sick to take care of themselves in Spain etc.
We might see Norwegian governments building nursing homes in Spain and on
Malta, both have been seriously proposed by local governments themselves and
some care facilities are already rented and built. However bodies are still
usually shipped home here for burial. And of course they could be shipped
home to colder climate for cryonic storage too.

>PS is there anyone who can do cryonics perfusion in a body buried for so
long and warm
>like in Australia?

It would just be a straight freeze if anything ever comes of the Australian

>Perhaps thats another problem when that time comes and if, just hope its
not a scam from
>a child or similar. Forgive me if you read this and are for real, but we
have to watch out
>for the bad ones.

If you know someone you trust in Melbourne, please let me know,
maybe we can set it up so this person can meet with Elizabeth, and verify
all we have to verify re her health, rationality, consistancy, economic
situation and financing etc.

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