X-Message-Number: 17097 Date: Wed, 25 Jul 2001 11:13:38 -0700 (PDT) From: Scott Badger <> Subject: Re: variation, self-esteem, and self-intertest The variation thread ... First, I'd like to ammend my thoughts on the notion that >H will likely be less diverse than humans are now. That would only apply to those >H's that are in close enough proximity that they can freely exchnage their expereinces and information. Those >H's that head out into space in different directions will certainly experience radically more variation in terms of their identities compared to each others and to those left behind. George Smith's self-esteem thread ... Thanks for elaborating on your views here, George. As a school psychologist for 5 years, I too am sick of hearing about self-esteem. I believe a more salient and helpful concept for child development is self-efficacy (see Bandura). That's what I'd like to see more children develop. It's still hard for me to imagine a person struggling to accomplish a goal, and after finally completing that goal, having no positive feelings about it ... or are you really suggesting that is the desirable state? Because I think the range of positive feelings people experience when they achieve goals naturally leads them to say things like, "I feel good about this thing that I have done. " Again, I agree that the translation for the individual should not be, "I am a good person for having done this thing" but more along the line of "I now have a greater sense of confidence in my ability to set and meet my goals". And finally, Lee's self-interest thread ... I fear we're becoming a little redundant, but ... First of all, to answer your question, No ... I cannot imagine breeding a human someday whose behaviors are not based on some level of self interest. You also made the point that your self-image is not zapped when you choose to go ahead and NOT let the driver go in front of you but that's only because you had a more important need to fill, the need to reach your destination asap. We all have a set of needs that often conflicti with each other. So since I'm talking about needs ... Let's try a new tack and dust off an old psychologist named Henry Murray who proposed: * Our goal in life is to be satisfied from acting to reduce stress (This is the total opposite of Freud's views concerning stress) * Murray argued that personality is determined by our needs and by the environment * He believes that each person is unique, but that there are also similarities in the personalities of all of us * Murray thinks we are shaped by our inherited attributes * Murray feels that people, "cannot understand the human personality unless we accept the impact of physiological forces and the stimuli in our physical, social, and cultural environments." * Murray disliked any aspect of psychology that projected negative or demeaning images of human beings * Murray believed that human beings are capable of solving any problems they face * He also thinks that a person is affected by the past, present and the future IOW, we are constantly juggling our various needs based on the current physiological, psychological, and social environments. * Murray said that needs are external and internal * He said that NOT everyone has all of the following needs that he formulated: (BTW, there were many more needs identified and they do form a hierarchy. The values assigned to the needs below will vary across people and within the same person over time.) 1. Abasement-to submit passively to external forces.To accept injury,blame,crticism &punishment.Resign to fate.Admit defeat.To seek to enjoy pain, punishment and illness. 2. Achievement-to accomplish something difficult. To master, manipulate, or organize physical objects, people, or ideas.To overcome obstacles; to rival and surpass others. 3. Affiliation- to draw near with an allied other who resembles one or who likes one. To adhere & remain loyal to a friend. 4. Agression- to overcome opposition forcefully. To fight,attack,injure, or kill another. To malisciously belittle, censure, or ridicule another. 5. Autonomy- to get free;break out of confinement.To resist coercion & restriction. To be independent & free to act accordingly to impulse and defy conventions. 6. Counteraction- to master or make up for faliure by estriving. To overcome weaknesses & to repress fear. To maintain self respect & pride on a high level. 7. Defendance-to defend the self against assault, criticism, & blame.To conceal or justify a misdeed, failure, or humiliation. 8. Deference- to admire & support a superior other . To yield eagerly to the influence of an allied other.To conform to custom. 9. Dominance- to control one's environment. To influence or direct the behavior of others by suggestion, seduction, persuasion, or command. 10. Exhibition- to make an impression. To be seen and heard. To excite, amaze, fascinate, entertain, shick, intrigue, amuse, or entice others. 11. Harmavoidance-to avoid pain, injury, illness, an death.To take precautionary measures. 12. Infavoidance- to avoid humiliation. To quit embarassing situations or to avoid conditions that may lead to the scorn, or indifference of others. 13. Nuturance- to give sympathy to & gratify the needs of a helpless other, an infant, or one who is weak, disabled, tired, inexperienced, lonely, humiliated, dejected, or mentally confused. 14. Order- to put things in order.To achieve cleanliness, arrangement, organization, balance, neatness & precision. 15. Play- to act for fun, without further purpose. 16. Rejection-to exclude, abandon, expel, or remain indifferent to an inferior other.To snub. 17. Sex- to form & further an erotic relationship. To have sexual intercourse. 18. Succorance- to be nursed, supported, sustained, surrounded, protected, loved, admired, guided, forgiven or consoled .To remain close to a devoted protector. 19. Understanding-to be inclined to analyze events & to generalize. To discuss & argue & to empasize one's opinions precisely. The types of needs are: 1. primary- (viscerogenic)- internal body states; survival 2. secondary-(psychogenic)-no specific origin in body 3. reactive- needs that involve a response to a specific object 4. proactive needs- needs that arise spontaneously The charachteristics of needs are: 1. subsidation-a situation in which one need is activated to aid in the satisfaction of another need 2. press- the influence of the environment & past events on the current activation of a need 3. thema- a combination of press & need(personality) that brings order to our behavior. Now let me be the first to say that Murray's work is certainly open to criticism, but to me there is something compelling about his theory. When I say that all behavior is motivated at its core by self-interest, I mean that we are all attempting to meet a very complex set of needs (often if not usually at the subconcious level). I'm probably getting close to the 20K so until later, Best regards, Scott Badger __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Make international calls for as low as $.04/minute with Yahoo! Messenger http://phonecard.yahoo.com/ Rate This Message: http://www.cryonet.org/cgi-bin/rate.cgi?msg=17097