X-Message-Number: 17097
Date: Wed, 25 Jul 2001 11:13:38 -0700 (PDT)
From: Scott Badger <>
Subject: Re: variation, self-esteem, and self-intertest

The variation thread ...

First, I'd like to ammend my thoughts on the notion
that >H will likely be less diverse than humans are
now.  That would only apply to those >H's that are in
close enough proximity that they can freely exchnage
their expereinces and information.  Those >H's that
head out into space in different directions will
certainly experience radically more variation in terms
of their identities compared to each others and to
those left behind.


George Smith's self-esteem thread ...

Thanks for elaborating on your views here, George.  As
a school psychologist for 5 years, I too am sick of
hearing about self-esteem.  I believe a more salient
and helpful concept for child development is
self-efficacy (see Bandura).  That's what I'd like to
see more children develop.  

It's still hard for me to imagine a person struggling
to accomplish a goal, and after finally completing
that goal, having no positive feelings about it ... or
are you really suggesting that is the desirable state?

Because I think the range of positive feelings people
experience when they achieve goals naturally leads
them to say things like,  "I feel good about this
thing that I have done. "  Again, I agree that the
translation for the individual should not be, "I am a
good person for having done this thing" but more along
the line of "I now have a greater sense of confidence
in my ability to set and meet my goals".   

And finally, Lee's self-interest thread ... 

I fear we're becoming a little redundant, but ...

First of all, to answer your question, No ... I cannot
imagine breeding a human someday whose behaviors are
not based on some level of self interest.  You also
made the point that your self-image is not zapped when
you choose to go ahead and NOT let the driver go in
front of you but that's only because you had a more
important need to fill, the need to reach your
destination asap.  We all have a set of needs that
often conflicti with each other.  So since I'm talking
about needs ...  Let's try a new tack and dust off an
old psychologist named Henry Murray who proposed:

*  Our goal in life is to be satisfied from acting to
reduce stress (This is the total opposite of Freud's
views concerning stress)

*	Murray argued that personality is determined by our
needs and by the environment

*	He believes that each person is unique, but that
there are also similarities in the personalities of
all of us

*	Murray thinks we are shaped by our inherited
attributes

*	Murray feels that people, "cannot understand the
human personality unless we accept the impact of
physiological forces and the stimuli in our physical,
social, and cultural environments."

*	Murray disliked any aspect of psychology that
projected negative or demeaning images of human beings

*	Murray believed that human beings are capable of
solving any problems they face

*	He also thinks that a person is affected by the
past, present and the future

IOW, we are constantly juggling our various needs
based on the current physiological, psychological, and
social environments.

*	Murray said that needs are external and internal

*	He said that NOT everyone has all of the following
needs that he formulated:  (BTW, there were many more
needs identified and they do form a hierarchy.  The
values assigned to the needs below will vary across
people and within the same person over time.)

1.	Abasement-to submit passively to external forces.To
accept injury,blame,crticism &punishment.Resign   to 
fate.Admit defeat.To seek to enjoy pain, punishment
and illness. 

2.	Achievement-to accomplish something difficult. To
master, manipulate, or organize physical objects,
people, or ideas.To overcome obstacles; to rival and
surpass others. 

3. Affiliation- to draw near with an allied other who
resembles one or who likes one. To adhere & remain
loyal  to a friend. 

4.	Agression- to overcome opposition forcefully. To
fight,attack,injure, or kill another. To malisciously
belittle, censure,  or ridicule another.

5.	Autonomy- to get free;break out of confinement.To
resist coercion & restriction. To be independent &
free to act accordingly to impulse and defy
conventions. 

6.	Counteraction- to master or make up for faliure by
estriving. To overcome weaknesses & to repress fear.
To maintain self respect & pride on a high level.

7.	Defendance-to defend the self against assault,
criticism, & blame.To conceal or justify a misdeed,
failure, or humiliation. 

8.	Deference- to admire & support a superior other .
To yield eagerly to the influence of an allied
other.To conform to custom. 

9.	Dominance- to control one's environment. To
influence or direct the behavior of others by
suggestion, seduction, persuasion, or command. 

10.	Exhibition- to make an impression. To be seen and
heard. To excite, amaze, fascinate, entertain, shick,
intrigue, amuse, or entice others.

11.	Harmavoidance-to avoid pain, injury, illness, an
death.To take precautionary measures. 

12.	Infavoidance- to avoid humiliation. To quit
embarassing situations or to avoid conditions that may
lead to the scorn, or indifference of others.

13.	Nuturance- to give sympathy to & gratify the needs
of a helpless other, an infant, or one who is weak,
disabled, tired, inexperienced, lonely, humiliated,
dejected, or mentally confused. 

14.	Order- to put things in order.To achieve
cleanliness, arrangement, organization, balance,
neatness & precision.

15.	Play- to act for fun, without further purpose. 

16. Rejection-to exclude, abandon, expel, or remain
indifferent to an inferior other.To snub. 

17.	Sex- to form & further an erotic relationship. To
have sexual intercourse. 

18.	Succorance- to be nursed, supported, sustained,
surrounded, protected, loved, admired, guided,
forgiven or consoled .To remain close to a devoted
protector. 

19.	Understanding-to be inclined to analyze events &
to generalize. To discuss & argue & to empasize one's
opinions precisely. 
  
The types of needs are: 

1.	primary- (viscerogenic)- internal body states;
survival

2.	secondary-(psychogenic)-no specific origin in body

3.	reactive- needs that involve a response to a
specific object

4.	proactive needs- needs that arise spontaneously

The charachteristics of needs are: 

1.	subsidation-a situation in which one need is
activated to aid in the satisfaction of another need

2.	press- the influence of the environment & past
events on the current activation of a need

3.	thema- a combination of press & need(personality)
that brings order to our behavior.


Now let me be the first to say that Murray's work is
certainly open to criticism, but to me there is
something compelling about his theory.  When I say
that all behavior is motivated at its core by
self-interest, I mean that we are all attempting to
meet a very complex set of needs (often if not usually
at the subconcious level).  

I'm probably getting close to the 20K so until later,

Best regards,

Scott Badger



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