X-Message-Number: 17118
From: "George Smith" <>
References: <>

Subject: Quick replies to comments on my ideas about self esteem, values and my 
punctuation.
Date: Thu, 26 Jul 2001 12:19:59 -0700

When I suggest that there is no need to place a value on the self, I do not
mean to imply that you should not judge your actions.

In message 17094 Thomas Donaldson makes this point in regard to values, if I
understand him correctly.

In message 17095 Professor Ettinger mentioned the value of "pride" whch
works extremely well if  by pride we mean that we feel good about what we
accomplish, how well we DID.  If, however, we identify with our actions then
we are more likely to run into problems in changing these actions or if
these actions are questioned by others.  "Pride goeth before a fall."  Yes,
IF pride means identification with the source of the pride.

In message 17097 Scott Badger suggests that completing a goal should cause
one to feel good.  I agree.  I have found it is easy to feel good when
accomplishing a desired goal and not decide I am the actions which I took to
achieve it.  Identity is not utility.

In message 17101 Elvind Berge rightfully catches me screwing up my
punctuation.  He is precisely right.  "When an abbreviation or a sentence
ends with a period, the period is always placed inside the closing quotation
mark."  (Reference Manual For Office Personnel, 5th Edition).

Mea culpa!  I will try to remember to do this correctly.  I will probably
continue to screw up, however.

However, in the same message Elvind implies that I suggest substituting
e-prime for standard English.  I view e-prime as training wheels for
reducing language generated neurosis.  IF you can stop identifying people
with actions willy nilly, feel free to use standard English (or French,
Spanish, German, etc.).  If you are still hallucinating, I suggest using
e-prime as much as possible until you can distinguish between actions and
actors.  Winston Churchill also held the English tongue in high regard.

In message 17103 Elvind Berge makes the beautiful point that by taking self
esteem to its ulitimate extreme we can be free of its influence.  If you
have infinite self esteem that is equivalent to having none at all.  If I
have infinite value, if my self esteem is perfect, then nothing I can do
will ever make it less.  At that point I have disconnected the valuation of
my actions from my "self".

The only problem with adopting this approach is to actually accomplish it.
If you can, congratulations!  If not, then seeing through the delusion can
work piecemeal, situation by situation, along the way.  It's a personal
choice either way.

Finally, going back to the issue of how I evaluate my actions but not my
"self" (whatever the heck that is), the murderer IS evaluated by his act of
murder.  If he were really not delusional, the murderer would evaluate the
value of commiting murder for his overall well being in a world which
generally frowns on such actions.

In the same way, my cat once tried to sneak up on a deer until the deer
stood up, towering above her.  The cat backed off immediately, (wth a
definite appearance of some shock) seeing that this "mouse" was out of her
league.  Cats do not have the illusion of self esteem.  I sometimes believe
that like Elvind Berge suggested, cats actually have infinite self esteem
evidenced by an attitude of "I am obviously superior."

Just my opinion.

George Smith
CI member

Rate This Message: http://www.cryonet.org/cgi-bin/rate.cgi?msg=17118