X-Message-Number: 17201
Date: Sat, 4 Aug 2001 22:45:51 -0400 (EDT)
From: Louis Epstein <>
Subject: Cryonet for July 23-4
CryoNet - Mon 23 Jul 2001
-------------------------
#17055: Cryonics Over Dead Geeks' Bodies [Kennita Watson]
>Wired Magazine wrote:
>> "Instead of preserving the finest physical specimens of 21st-century
>> humanity -- the athletic, the attractive, the physically fit, the
>> Adonis and Venus de Milo types whose bodies are so well deserving of
>> eternity -- we seem to be conserving geeks with taped-up glasses and
>> bad haircuts, people whose idea of dinner ranges only a little further
>> than Frito-Lays, Cheetos and Jolt," Pringle said.
>I take umbrage at Ms. Pringle's remarks. I am signed up for cryonic
>suspension, and while I am an unabashed technophile (Ms. Pringle might
>call me a "geek"), neither I nor any of my friends and associates has
>taped-up glasses, and almost none of us lives on junk food. Cryonics is
>the last-ditch means to life extension; it's much better to stay active
>throughout the longevity revolution, and eating right and exercising are
>proven strategies for assisting on that score.
>Ms. Pringle seems not to appreciate the extent to which our appearances
>will be under our control in a future whose technology is advanced enough
>to revive those cryonically suspended. In that future, anyone who wants to
>look like Venus or Adonis will be able to do so. I think that almost all
>cryonicists are more interested in preserving their minds, their memories,
>their sense of identity -- their selves, as it were -- than their bodies.
She's just playing to silly stereotypes.
Not sure what she'd say if a supermodel
signed up,probably snicker at vanity.
(Venus de Milo HAS NO ARMS...hmm...)
Body-modification doesn't please me anyway.
#17057: altruism and the letting in a car problem [John de Rivaz]
>If you listen to his excellent short speech about God and death
Whose?
>and are aware that
>1. no one can be totally sure that there is no god
>2. by definition you cannot *defeat* god (if it is defeatable then it is
>not omnipotent)
>3. nature in the raw knows nothing of kindness, mercy or altruism
>then you may consider that god is unaware of altruism or kindness, and
>the only way you may just change this is by example.
This doesn't follow AT ALL.
>Science has shown us that the universe is totally cold and uncaring -
>studying the universe is the only rational method of studying that the
>character of god may be like if there is one.
Not so.The universe is hardly a glimmer
off the tip of an iceberg compared to God.
>Maybe that is what the universe is for - a computer simulation designed
>to evolve traits of interaction or behaviour that are totally novel to
>its creator(s)
It is not a computer simulation.
But perhaps God put us here to discover
our obligation to kindness/mercy/altruism
and thus transcend the material universe.
How can "traits of interaction or behavior"
be "totally novel" to something/someone omniscient?
#17059: liquified brains and the insect factor [veronica sullivan]
>I think it is also important to mention here as well the invasion of the
>insects shortly after death, which is a salient, contributing feature of
>the rapid decomposition of the corpse.
>Generally within two + hours of death, flies are attracted to the corpse,
>particularly if there are any wounds or sepsis. Maggots are deposited
>that find their way into the orifices and body cavities.
>Once the corpse is buried, necrophagous beetles- belonging to the Coleoptera
>family begin feasting on all the organs including the brain as well as all
>the soft tissue.
Death is ugly.
How can anyone want to do it?
I wonder if lurid depictions of bodily
destruction can be used to get people to
sign up for cryonics.Certainly I find
avoiding rotting a more persuasive reason
than the still-hard-to-credit prospect of
revival.
#17062: Cryonics and George Harrison [John Krug]
>.... George Harrison, musician and icon to many baby boomers, is dying of
>cancer.. It's an unlikely stretch, but I'm probably going to send out some
>"cryonics" feelers to fan sites to see if something happens from it...
His cancer is in the brain,no?
Donaldson would seem him as beyond
restoring if he died of it.
#17063: Suspended Animation of Cells (Including Stem Cells) [Appraisco]
[David C. Johnson]
>The final storage temperature is also critical for successful
>cryopreservation. To completely stop biological time, storage temperatures
>must be maintained below -130C, the glass transition point below which
>liquid water does not exist and diffusion is insignificant. While many cell
>cultures are successfully stored at -70C to -90C for months or even years,
>biological time is not stopped, only slowed, and cellular damage or changes
>will accumulate.
So how is Trygve's grandpa doing in the
shed with the dry ice?
>Storage in liquid nitrogen at -196C effectively prevents all thermally
>driven chemical reactions. Only photo-physical effects caused by background
>ionizing radiation still operate at this temperature.
What are the radiation-resistance properties
of extant dewars and cryostats?
#17065: Re: STOP Accusations! (Was Stop chain letters!!) [Keith F. Lynch]
>I apologize for accusing Natasha of spreading chain letters.
>I hope she is able to figure out who forged a chain letter in her
>name, so that the culprit can be sued for possibly having damaged
>Natasha's reputation.
Have we yet learned the context in which
the 602P hoax was sent to extro-list over
her signature?
CryoNet - Tue 24 Jul 2001
-------------------------
#17067: Pringle the uninformed, souls? Huh?, George Harrison [James Swayze]
>> From: Kennita Watson <>
>> Subject: Cryonics Over Dead Geeks' Bodies
>>
>> I take umbrage at Ms. Pringle's remarks.
>So do I. She is saying all the uninformed things she says merely to be
>cute and entertaining so as to promote her book. She has no interest in
>journalistic truth, if there is such a thing. Recall that John Grigg
>first introduced us to her and her book. I wish there was a public forum to
>expose er ah debate her. I would deliciously love exposing her ignorance
>and her lack of intellect.
Her email address is
or possibly
wonder if she reads Cryonet archives.
>> From: "George Smith" <>
>> Re: #17053 - Mike Perry's "Kindness, Selfishness, Libertarians"
>> There is no need for justifying your existence nor assigning yourself some
>> kind of "worth". If anything, your existence is it's own "justification".
>> Your "soul" does not need a price tag.
>>
>> Just my opinion.
>Umm, George my friend, what soul? My "soul" has no self worth because
>it's existence is pure myth. I have no soul and am damned proud of that
>fact.
You have no say at all in whether or
not you have a soul,and believing you
don't have one is nothing to be proud of.
>I do not and never would wish to deidentify from any, not one, of my
>experiences no matter how terrifying, horrible, painful, etc.
So you wouldn't identify with one of the
Mike Perry memento-educated programmed
clones being an estimate of your experiences.
>I felt exceeding bliss the very moment I shed the shackles of mystical
>belief and became able to rely upon my own wits, my own logic, my own
>rational mind alone.
Your eager racing down the blind tunnel
of atheism does you no credit at all.
>P.S. Does anyone know of a quick way to check how many bytes a message
>might be before sending so to avoid reaching the 20k limit?
Depends entirely on the software used.
#17069: NDE study not scientific [James Swayze]
>Alas, NDE's again, ok here's my sophisticated and scientific
>response...BALONEY!
My response to atheism is similar...
>> Message #16953 From: "Nord" <>
>> Subject: Mind Continues
>>
>> Friday June 29 10:07 AM ET
>> Scientist Says Mind Continues After Brain Dies
>> By Sarah Tippit
>> LOS ANGELES (Reuters) - A British scientist studying heart attack
>> patients says he is finding evidence that suggests that consciousness
>> may continue after the brain has stopped functioning and a patient is
>> clinically dead.
>Energy alone without matter to conform it cannot hold information. Yes a
>radio signal holds information but it was modulated by a device made of
>matter and must be demodulated by same. I'll wager anything there are no
>*energy only* beings anywhere in existence. If someone has a reasoned
>case for such that does not violate the laws of physics I'd love to hear it.
I'm not so sure there really is a distinction
between matter and energy..."matter" may just
be a form of organization of densely-packed energy.
>> ``The studies are very significant in that we have a group of people
>> with no brain function ... who have well-structured, lucid thought
>> processes with reasoning and memory formation at a time when their
>> brains are shown not to function,
>Wrong, pure confabulation. I know, I've experienced heart stoppage. The
>NDE I experienced was formulated well after the event. My immediate
>thoughts after being informed I had been coded were that death must be
>nothingness because I couldn't remember a damned thing about it.
So...Swayze did not experience the OoBE.
That not everyone has them,according to
the Parnia study,seems to me evidence
that the ones people have are real.
>The candy stripper forgot to replace the breathing mask after a suction,
>the two got their rhythm out of sync, and all the oxygen was pulled from
>my lungs and wham my heart stopped! No tunnel, no lights, no friendly
>beings, no crappola!
See,if all these experiences WERE really
just temporal lobe seizures,the needed
physiological conditions would have
prompted one automatically.
>> Sam Parnia, one of two doctors from Southampton General Hospital in
>> England who have been studying so-called near-death experiences (NDEs),
>> told Reuters in an interview. ``We need to do much larger-scale studies,
>Yeah wouldn't he love to get the grants for that waste of effort.
>> Of those, 56 said they had no recollection of the time they were
>> unconscious and seven reported having memories. Of those, four were
>> labeled NDEs in that they reported lucid memories of thinking,
>> reasoning, moving about and communicating with others after doctors
>> determined their brains were not functioning.
>Hopelessly subjective. There is no way at this time to know what is or is
>not happening in the mind of an individual during this time. However,
>Occum's Razor would suggest the simplest answer owing to the lack of
>electrical activity would be ummm, NOTHING.
Wouldn't explain why some had different experiences
than others.
>> FEELINGS OF PEACE
>> Among other things, the patients reported remembering feelings of
>> peace, joy and harmony. For some, time sped up, senses heightened and
>> they lost awareness of their bodies.
>Yeah endorphins are real powerful. You can get really high on them.
So maybe followup studies will be able
to track endorphin levels.And determine
if they really have anything to do with
it.
>> The patients also reported seeing a bright light, entering another
>> realm and communicating with dead relatives. One, who called himself a
>> lapsed Catholic and Pagan, reported a close encounter with a mystical
>> being.
>I would suggest this individual is preoccupied with guilt produced by
>religious programming and has issues that came to fore due to
>preconceived expectations.
I am inclined to believe that
experiences of the Divine can
take forms that the person is
prepared to believe.God doesn't
play the favorites particular
religions pretend He does.
>> Near-death experiences have been reported for centuries but in Parnia s
>> study none of the patients were found to have received low oxygen
>> levels, which some skeptics believe may contribute to the phenomenon.
>Baloney! No oxygen deprivation from a heart stoppage? No blood to brain
>then no oxygen to brain, pretty simple. I can't believe this was taken
>seriously.
Well,you haven't seen the case
records...you're just concerned
with atheist orthodoxy being upheld.
>I've experienced oxygen deprived unconsciousness from blacking out from
>too many G-forces while doing aerobatic maneuvers...no memory loss.
And no OoBE,thus showing they're not a
symptom of oxygen-deprived unconsciousness.
>This Parnia is a fool, is no scientist and is probably trying to fit his
>science in to a preconceived agenda.
You appear to be trying to fit his results
to YOUR preconceived agenda.
>> ``Here you have a severe insult to the brain but perfect memory.
>What severe insult to the brain?
Weren't you just saying there was one
he wasn't even mentioning?
>There is obviously no concussion to the brain in a heart stoppage. There
>is no trauma to the brain. There is a sudden lack of oxygen.
And aren't you saying that has an effect on
the brain?
>> Since the initial experiment, Parnia and his colleagues have found more
>> than 3,500 people with lucid memories that apparently occurred at times
>> they were thought to be clinically dead. Many of the patients, he said,
>> were reluctant to share their experiences fearing they would be thought
>> crazy.
>How many of them, the typical floaters--hovering above their bodies, can
>accurately describe things they couldn't possibly otherwise see unless
>they truly were out of body and seeing them from an above perspective?
There are certainly reports of such occurrences.
>The bottom line is this study is a great big load of male bovine
>excrement.
Atheism is a much bigger one.
I'm sorry,but Swayze's extended anti-NDE
rant hit nerves hard with me.I've never had
such an experience myself,but my parents have.
And as I've said I regard the existence of
anything whatsoever to constitute irrefutable
proof that an Infinitely First Cause of
existence must exist.And unless there is such
an IFC,there is no reason for existence,
nor any excuse for us to live.
Knock churches all you like,I'll probably
knock with you.But LAY OFF mysticism and
theism if you want me to think you rational.
#17077: Kennita Watson, your attention please, [Appraisco]
>Of all the folks we know, would Stephen Hawking not be an
>absolutely ideal candidate for cryopreservation? And George Harrison
>would have to rank waaay of there too, right?
What criteria are you ranking people on?
Need for bodily repair?Popular attachment
to the idea of their survival?
#17078: Self Worth, Neti-Neti [Mike Perry]
>George Smith, #17060, says:
>>There is no need for justifying your existence nor assigning yourself
>>some kind of "worth".
>But if you have no worth, why bother with something like cryonics or trying
>to live forever? Even simple self-preservation can be called into question.
>And it does seem that a lot of people reject cryonics for the very reason
>that they consider themselves unworthy of "coming back." As one such person
>somewhat humorously stated it, "my brains aren't worth freezing." How do
>you answer an objection like that, without invoking some concept of the
>value or worth of the person in question?
Another angle on what I'm telling Swayze above.
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