X-Message-Number: 1727
Date: 09 Feb 93 01:12:38 EST
From: David S Pizer <>
Subject: CRYONICS

Reply to Mike Darwin and Saul Kent 
From: David Pizer 

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Note:  A while back, Mike Darwin asked me some questions and 
there were some other remarks on the subjects I address below.  I
have been out of town and I apologize for this late reply. Anyhow
here it is, (perhaps) better late than never? 
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Initially, I would like to reply to Mike's allegations that 
something wrong was done in my helping to reserve the Arizona 
building for Alcor.  Rather than go back and forth on charges and
arguing, I would just like to make two points: 

First, during all the time of negotiations, Alcor never was 
obligated to any agreement, or was at any risk, at any time.  Any
offers, or contracts, were signed only by me, not Alcor, not as 
official Alcor representative.  I signed all such documents with 
the phrase "David Pizer and/or Nominee."  This type of proposal 
puts all the risk on me if any mistakes are made and obligates 
only me if something goes wrong.  If Alcor decided not to 
purchase the building, and the offer was not cancelable, I would 
have been the only person to lose anything. 

I only used my own money, $10,000.00, for the deposit.  If Alcor 
had decided to take the building, I had announced that this would
be my donation to Alcor for the building.  If Alcor wanted to own
the building, at close of escrow, I announced that I would sign 
over all the interest to Alcor.  

If Mike wants to say that this is illegal, or even claim that 
this is not common practice in real estate, or was not in Alcor's
interest over mine, please quote your sources or expert's names. 

Second, rather than make charges that because the second buyer 
wanted to sell it to us for $100,000 more than he paid for it, 
and therefore there was something wrong being done, let's ask 
instead if at the new (higher) price was it still a very good 
deal?  Remember, the first buyer got it from the RTC for a 
fraction of what the original owners paid to build it.  Contrary 
to Mike's claims, there WERE mentions of the government selling 
buildings for way below their value in the national media. Mike, 
I do not see how you could have missed all those stories on 
television where people bought real estate for a fraction of its 
value from the RTC. 

Mike, let's not turn this into an argument, let's just see if 
this was a good deal for Alcor by comparing it to any other 
building (with benefits of hard zoning, fire sprinklers, good 
neighbors, etc).  I offer a friendly challenge to Mike or, any 
other person, to bring Alcor a better deal on another building of
equal quality.   

Next, I would like to reply to Charles Platt.   

Charles, I was surprised to read your postings, that you felt 
that Saul should not have to answer questions about his 
involvement in a cryonics organization, that closed up and lost 5
to 7 patients, in a public forum. I was surprised because Saul is
a public person with great influence over Alcor and often uses 
this forum.   

Recently, Curtis sent me a copy of a small book(?) entitled 
"Quiet Desperation" "On Immortality."  In his article (page 171) 
Curtis states:  

	"The Cryonics Society of New York was financed mostly out  
	of the pockets of Saul and myself.  Nothing will keep  
	going unless - to put it bluntly- it makes money.  We  
	found we were going broke.  Cryonics wasn't making any 
	money, so we had to go about our business." 

Charles, if you were on the Board and knew of a person (any 
person) who was involved with Alcor and had great influence upon 
them, wouldn't you want to know about their past history and 
involvement in cryonics?   

If this person were able to:  
	Help bring about the removal of Alcor's president;  
	Influence changes in the Board of Directors;  
	Influence whether Alcor moved or did not move to another 
	location;  
	Participate directly in management of some of Alcor's legal battles;  
	Afford to give money or other financial benefits directly to
	Directors;   
And, if this person had been involved in another cryonics 
organization years ago and appears to have held similar power and
influence, and if this other, earlier organization had gone out 
of business and lost all of its patients, would you not feel it 
was your duty to try to find out why this happened? 

(Please note that many of the influences I argue that Saul has, 
also apply to several members, including myself). 

Next, I would like to reply to Mike Darwin's request for 
information about my past history.  I would like to point out 
that I am only asking Saul about his past history of involvement 
in cryonics matters and Mike is asking for my history in non- 
cryonics matters.  However, I will answer his questions. 

I have never used any other name other than David Pizer. 

I have never been convicted of any crime other than a traffic ticket. 

I have been in civil lawsuits as plaintiff.  

I have never been bankrupt.   

I spent 5 minutes in the Vista Jail (in the Oceanside matter 
listed below). 

I spent 6 hours in police custody in the Alcor raid in 1988. 

In the last 30 years, these are the legal civil suits I can 
remember: 

I have been the plaintiff in civil suit where I filed suit to 
obtain injunctions from two ex-associates who had broken a 
covenant not to compete and I prevailed in both of these suits. 

When I repossessed a motel in Arizona (for nonpayment) and found 
that a new building had been built on my property.  We started 
suit for title to this new building, or to compel the builders to
remove it from my property.  Before this came to trial, I entered
into a compromise and received title to the building. 

I filed suit against a health spa for violation of my contract 
and they gave me $5,000 and 4 free years membership. 

I sued a car dealer for selling me a defective new Jeep when it 
repeated broke down and they could not fix it.  They had to take 
it back. 

I have been indicted once for violation of a zoning ordinance in 
one of my seat cover businesses. (This is where we were doing 
seat cover work under an awning and, under the existing zoning, 
we were supposed to be inside an enclosed building.  The charges 
were later dropped when I came into compliance.  This matter was 
similar to the problem we recently had at the Alcor building.  
However in my case I came into compliance by making alterations 
to the building, whereas Alcor will have to make alterations to 
their building and surrender other rights.  I feel the lessons I 
learned in my zoning problem would help me in advising Alcor on 
how to handle their zoning or CUP problems.) 

There have never been any judgments against me, with possible 
exception of attorneys fees I had to pay when I lost my civil 
suit against the city of Oceanside.  (A judgement would have been
automatic for the loser.  However, I believe I paid them before 
the judgement was obtained). 

The specific legal matter you refer to is as follows:   

Around 1985 I bought a second house at the beach in Oceanside.  
During the time I owned it I had a controversy with a policeman 
and was taken into custody. This is my side of the story: 

One night two neighbor families and my wife and I went to dinner. 
Upon our return home, Trudy and I went inside and went to bed.  A
few minutes later I was woken by loud shouting outside the front 
of my condo.  (It later turned out to be an angry officer 
shouting at my neighbor's teenage daughter who was driving her 
father's car).   

I went to my front yard, within our wrought iron fence, and 
watched a policeman harassing and verbally abusing my neighbors, 
who were returning later than I had.  I never left my property.  
The policeman ordered me to go back inside my house.  I said I 
was going inside and (this was a major mistake I made), I told 
him that I was going to call his superior.   

While I was on the phone to his superior, the officer and another
policeman entered my house and beat me to the floor and 
handcuffed me. The officers were angry and well armed.  There 
were 5 children and 6 adults outside.  I was taken to the police 
car and driven to the jail. 

I was in the jail less than 5 minutes when the main, night police
supervisor released me.  He called an ambulance and took me to 
the hospital for treatment of the beating.  

There were 11 witnesses to the matter who went down that very 
night and filed police brutality charges with the Oceanside 
police department against the officers who beat me.   

Before I had returned to Phoenix the next day, the Chief of 
Police of Oceanside called my secretary in Phoenix and asked her 
to relay his apology and told her to tell me the minute I arrived
that no charges were ever filed against me and that a formal 
letter of apology would be forth coming.  In fact, the officer 
did write out some kind of complaint against me but I never 
received it. 

I did receive a letter of apology signed by the police Chief.  I 
also received an offer to settle the case for $5,000.00. 

I refused their offer and I decided to file suit. 

During the following trial, I made several critical errors in my 
suit against the Oceanside Police.  I only called 3 witness (to 
save money on depositions and other expenses). In addition I only
called the men who had observed the incident.  In retrospect, I 
now feel that I should have called all 11 witnesses, especially 
the wives and children. I have relived the errors I made in this 
trial over in my mind a thousand times since it ended. 

A major setback was at the beginning of the trial when the judge 
disallowed the jury to know about the Chief's letter of apology. 

(In it, the Chief admitted guilt by his department.)  The theory 
for the courts to disallow this kind of evidence is the claim 
that the facts were obtained by an internal affairs investigation
into the department, and that to reveal the letter would 
compromise the police's ability to carry on future meaningful 
internal affairs investigations.  (I have since learned that this
is a common police defense in these type of cases). 

To make a long story short, I lost the case, lost the $5,000 
settlement offer and, to add insult to injury, I had to pay 
several hundred dollars in attorney fees to the city of 
Oceanside.   

Mike, the good part of the story is that when you and I and the 
other 4 people were arrested in Riverside several years later, I 
was able to help you and others mount a better lawsuit.  If you 
remember, I was the one who put up the $6,000 retainer.  And 
towards the end, you and I were the ones who strongly recommended
to the others that we accept Riverside's offer of $15,000 to each
of us, rather than go to trial.  (This made the total award for 
the 6 of us come to $90,000). 

Mike, in answer to your request, you have my permission to obtain
any existing records on this case. The trial was held in a Vista 
(the sister town of Oceanside) courtroom around 1985 or 1986. I 
think it was called Pizer vs Oceanside. 

Mike, you also asked for some personal information.  I am 
answering those questions here: 

Trudy and I were married in 1958. We were highschool sweethearts. 

I went to work for my father as a salesman in 1958 in the family 
seat cover business. 

Around 1966, I left my father and sold automobiles (mostly new 
Fords) intermingled with owning a sales agency (working as a 
manufacturer's rep for 5 auto parts manufacturers).  During that 
time, I also owned a radio and television broadcasting school. 

Mike, you have often characterized me as a used car salesman for 
having sold cars for a few years in my earlier days.  I did sell 
cars for a few years in the late 1960's.  There were some sales, 
although not illegal, I would now consider inappropriate.  They 
involved using high pressure techniques, embellishment and 
deception, in selling cars.  These sales were when I was in the 
early training stage and was asked (At the time I felt "forced" 
to go along with management) to participate in various forms of 
high pressure acts.   

Since joining Alcor, I have been honest and open about these 
events of the late 1960's.  I feel I have learned from things I 
did and what I saw done in those years. 

In 1970, while still a car salesman, I suffered a very sobering 
experience with the death of my two daughters in a house fire.  
Immediately after the accident, I was unable to work and spent a 
month sitting around at my mother-in-law's house reflecting on my
past life.  During that period, I came to the conclusion that I 
would like to try to lead a more worthwhile life.   

Around 1970, after my father died, and after we lost our 
daughters, Trudy and I returned to the family seat cover business
in Phoenix which was in terrible financial condition. The 
business owed about $20,000.00 in old bills and had 3 employees 
and only 2 or 3 thousand dollars in assets.  As a way of trying 
to forget my anguish,  We plunged ourselves into trying to save 
the company.  With hard work and a lot more luck, Trudy and I 
turned that business around and made money by the mid 1970's.  At
our high point, in this business, we owned 9 seat cover stores, a
seat cover factory, a wholesale upholstery supply company, an (in
house) advertizing agency and several real estate investments. 

In the 1980's we sold several of the seat cover stores as the 
real estate had become too valuable for the continued operations 
of seat cover businesses.  (People kept making Trudy and I offers
we could not refuse). 

Today, Trudy and I own: A seat cover business which we franchise 
out certain rights to 4 retail stores, and which is involved with
me doing business consulting; an (in-house) advertizing agency; 5
commercial buildings, two houses (one is a cabin-trailer in a 
Flagstaff); several pieces of bare real estate, with near-future 
development value.  In addition we carry contracts on real estate
we have sold, we own a couple of older motels, and have other 
investments.  

We have also owned other motels, a water company, and recently we
have started a new wholesale distribution business with our 
friend, Forrest Munden (an Alcor member). 

My education includes 3 years at West Phoenix High School with a 
later GED diploma.  Early in life I took a lot of business 
courses at Glendale Community College and some natural science 
courses at Phoenix Community College. 

About 10 years ago I became interested in my educations again and
became what they call a "re-entry" student.  I took in classes at
ASU and Cal-State and recently received my degree in Political 
Science from ASU. 

My social and community service has included over 30 years in the
Optimist International Organization. Among other positions, I 
have been club president and Arizona District Secretary.   

I have been a Big Brother twice and was chosen to do media ads 
for the Big Brother agency in Arizona years ago. 

I have been on the volunteer staff at the Barrow Neurological 
Institute in Phoenix.  

I will list only a few of the things I have done in conjunction 
with Alcor as for me to list them all would sound self-serving. 

In the 1988 Dora Kent raid, with 5 others, I was taken into 
custody for refusing to leave the area and for refusal to obey 
orders to quit taking pictures.  As mentioned above, I later put 
up the $6.000 retainer to file suit which won us a total of 
$90,000. 

I invested into the Symbex building. 

I made the first Pizer Tanks for Alcor at no charge. 

I have given donations to Alcor over the years and continue to. 

I have my dog, Pandora, in storage at Alcor. 

In disclosure to financial help to other Directors I submit: 

I have given some Directors, (and other Alcor friends) free 
housing at my motel in Wrightwood for short periods. 

Trudy and I have had staff members and Directors stay in our 
houses in Phoenix and Wrightwood. 

I gave one Director money ($200.00) to help with moving expenses 
and also helped with previous airfare.  Since all directors have 
now agreed to report any contributions (over $100) you will soon 
be able to go to Alcor and inspect this file. 

For a while I have been making a $300.00 per month donation to 
the Alcor staff.  As you know, some of the staff are Directors. 



Last I would like to reply to Saul. 

Saul, you said in your last posting (on the subject of your 
[not] answering questions about your past in cryonics)) that you 
don't believe that Cryonet is an appropriate forum for discussion
of highly complex events in the history of cryonics which took 
place over long periods of time.   

Although I believe Cryonet it a good place for you to answer the 
concerns of Alcor members about your past because it is the forum
where every member can read your answers and they can have the 
opportunity to ask questions as the history unfolds.    

Saul, you have operated in the public, often in this very forum, 
when you wanted things and influenced Alcor in the past.  
However, if you would like to suggest another forum, I am willing
to cooperate with you. 

Saul, you choose to have influence over Alcor.  Our lives are in 
the balance.  Before the Board, (and other Alcor members) listens
to your suggestions and submits to your influence, I feel they 
have an obligation to learn as much about your history in 
cryonics as possible so that they can make informed judgments on 
your recommendations and council.  I hope that you too will 
reflect on your past history and remember past mistakes and try 
not to repeat them.  Saul, it there was any way that I could 
convince you that I am not trying to embarrass you, that I 
honestly feel that you need to be more careful when you use your 
influence on Alcor in the future and that we could all be better 
off from this whole discussion, I would be satisfied. 

In closing:  Saul, your refusal to discuss with me, and my 
insistence on discussing with you, the subject of what happened 
at the Cryonics Society of New York, and other matters,  has 
gotten out of hand.  I am sorry that my first set of questions 
were asked the way they were.  (Perhaps I was feeling some of 
that "moral outrage" you felt in the Dick Jones matter, and the 
tone of my questions demonstrates why moral outrage can sometimes
be counter-productive).    

In the meantime, Mike Perry and Steve Bridge are trying to be 
mediators in this, and I appreciate that.  Therefore I am willing
to ask my questions to you privately with the help of Mike and 
Steve.  Maybe if we keep the questions private we can reduce what
appears to be arguing.  Would you prefer this to a public 
discussion? 

I await your response.  

Sincerely,  David Pizer   

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