X-Message-Number: 1727 Date: 09 Feb 93 01:12:38 EST From: David S Pizer <> Subject: CRYONICS Reply to Mike Darwin and Saul Kent From: David Pizer ----------------------------------------------------------------- Note: A while back, Mike Darwin asked me some questions and there were some other remarks on the subjects I address below. I have been out of town and I apologize for this late reply. Anyhow here it is, (perhaps) better late than never? ----------------------------------------------------------------- Initially, I would like to reply to Mike's allegations that something wrong was done in my helping to reserve the Arizona building for Alcor. Rather than go back and forth on charges and arguing, I would just like to make two points: First, during all the time of negotiations, Alcor never was obligated to any agreement, or was at any risk, at any time. Any offers, or contracts, were signed only by me, not Alcor, not as official Alcor representative. I signed all such documents with the phrase "David Pizer and/or Nominee." This type of proposal puts all the risk on me if any mistakes are made and obligates only me if something goes wrong. If Alcor decided not to purchase the building, and the offer was not cancelable, I would have been the only person to lose anything. I only used my own money, $10,000.00, for the deposit. If Alcor had decided to take the building, I had announced that this would be my donation to Alcor for the building. If Alcor wanted to own the building, at close of escrow, I announced that I would sign over all the interest to Alcor. If Mike wants to say that this is illegal, or even claim that this is not common practice in real estate, or was not in Alcor's interest over mine, please quote your sources or expert's names. Second, rather than make charges that because the second buyer wanted to sell it to us for $100,000 more than he paid for it, and therefore there was something wrong being done, let's ask instead if at the new (higher) price was it still a very good deal? Remember, the first buyer got it from the RTC for a fraction of what the original owners paid to build it. Contrary to Mike's claims, there WERE mentions of the government selling buildings for way below their value in the national media. Mike, I do not see how you could have missed all those stories on television where people bought real estate for a fraction of its value from the RTC. Mike, let's not turn this into an argument, let's just see if this was a good deal for Alcor by comparing it to any other building (with benefits of hard zoning, fire sprinklers, good neighbors, etc). I offer a friendly challenge to Mike or, any other person, to bring Alcor a better deal on another building of equal quality. Next, I would like to reply to Charles Platt. Charles, I was surprised to read your postings, that you felt that Saul should not have to answer questions about his involvement in a cryonics organization, that closed up and lost 5 to 7 patients, in a public forum. I was surprised because Saul is a public person with great influence over Alcor and often uses this forum. Recently, Curtis sent me a copy of a small book(?) entitled "Quiet Desperation" "On Immortality." In his article (page 171) Curtis states: "The Cryonics Society of New York was financed mostly out of the pockets of Saul and myself. Nothing will keep going unless - to put it bluntly- it makes money. We found we were going broke. Cryonics wasn't making any money, so we had to go about our business." Charles, if you were on the Board and knew of a person (any person) who was involved with Alcor and had great influence upon them, wouldn't you want to know about their past history and involvement in cryonics? If this person were able to: Help bring about the removal of Alcor's president; Influence changes in the Board of Directors; Influence whether Alcor moved or did not move to another location; Participate directly in management of some of Alcor's legal battles; Afford to give money or other financial benefits directly to Directors; And, if this person had been involved in another cryonics organization years ago and appears to have held similar power and influence, and if this other, earlier organization had gone out of business and lost all of its patients, would you not feel it was your duty to try to find out why this happened? (Please note that many of the influences I argue that Saul has, also apply to several members, including myself). Next, I would like to reply to Mike Darwin's request for information about my past history. I would like to point out that I am only asking Saul about his past history of involvement in cryonics matters and Mike is asking for my history in non- cryonics matters. However, I will answer his questions. I have never used any other name other than David Pizer. I have never been convicted of any crime other than a traffic ticket. I have been in civil lawsuits as plaintiff. I have never been bankrupt. I spent 5 minutes in the Vista Jail (in the Oceanside matter listed below). I spent 6 hours in police custody in the Alcor raid in 1988. In the last 30 years, these are the legal civil suits I can remember: I have been the plaintiff in civil suit where I filed suit to obtain injunctions from two ex-associates who had broken a covenant not to compete and I prevailed in both of these suits. When I repossessed a motel in Arizona (for nonpayment) and found that a new building had been built on my property. We started suit for title to this new building, or to compel the builders to remove it from my property. Before this came to trial, I entered into a compromise and received title to the building. I filed suit against a health spa for violation of my contract and they gave me $5,000 and 4 free years membership. I sued a car dealer for selling me a defective new Jeep when it repeated broke down and they could not fix it. They had to take it back. I have been indicted once for violation of a zoning ordinance in one of my seat cover businesses. (This is where we were doing seat cover work under an awning and, under the existing zoning, we were supposed to be inside an enclosed building. The charges were later dropped when I came into compliance. This matter was similar to the problem we recently had at the Alcor building. However in my case I came into compliance by making alterations to the building, whereas Alcor will have to make alterations to their building and surrender other rights. I feel the lessons I learned in my zoning problem would help me in advising Alcor on how to handle their zoning or CUP problems.) There have never been any judgments against me, with possible exception of attorneys fees I had to pay when I lost my civil suit against the city of Oceanside. (A judgement would have been automatic for the loser. However, I believe I paid them before the judgement was obtained). The specific legal matter you refer to is as follows: Around 1985 I bought a second house at the beach in Oceanside. During the time I owned it I had a controversy with a policeman and was taken into custody. This is my side of the story: One night two neighbor families and my wife and I went to dinner. Upon our return home, Trudy and I went inside and went to bed. A few minutes later I was woken by loud shouting outside the front of my condo. (It later turned out to be an angry officer shouting at my neighbor's teenage daughter who was driving her father's car). I went to my front yard, within our wrought iron fence, and watched a policeman harassing and verbally abusing my neighbors, who were returning later than I had. I never left my property. The policeman ordered me to go back inside my house. I said I was going inside and (this was a major mistake I made), I told him that I was going to call his superior. While I was on the phone to his superior, the officer and another policeman entered my house and beat me to the floor and handcuffed me. The officers were angry and well armed. There were 5 children and 6 adults outside. I was taken to the police car and driven to the jail. I was in the jail less than 5 minutes when the main, night police supervisor released me. He called an ambulance and took me to the hospital for treatment of the beating. There were 11 witnesses to the matter who went down that very night and filed police brutality charges with the Oceanside police department against the officers who beat me. Before I had returned to Phoenix the next day, the Chief of Police of Oceanside called my secretary in Phoenix and asked her to relay his apology and told her to tell me the minute I arrived that no charges were ever filed against me and that a formal letter of apology would be forth coming. In fact, the officer did write out some kind of complaint against me but I never received it. I did receive a letter of apology signed by the police Chief. I also received an offer to settle the case for $5,000.00. I refused their offer and I decided to file suit. During the following trial, I made several critical errors in my suit against the Oceanside Police. I only called 3 witness (to save money on depositions and other expenses). In addition I only called the men who had observed the incident. In retrospect, I now feel that I should have called all 11 witnesses, especially the wives and children. I have relived the errors I made in this trial over in my mind a thousand times since it ended. A major setback was at the beginning of the trial when the judge disallowed the jury to know about the Chief's letter of apology. (In it, the Chief admitted guilt by his department.) The theory for the courts to disallow this kind of evidence is the claim that the facts were obtained by an internal affairs investigation into the department, and that to reveal the letter would compromise the police's ability to carry on future meaningful internal affairs investigations. (I have since learned that this is a common police defense in these type of cases). To make a long story short, I lost the case, lost the $5,000 settlement offer and, to add insult to injury, I had to pay several hundred dollars in attorney fees to the city of Oceanside. Mike, the good part of the story is that when you and I and the other 4 people were arrested in Riverside several years later, I was able to help you and others mount a better lawsuit. If you remember, I was the one who put up the $6,000 retainer. And towards the end, you and I were the ones who strongly recommended to the others that we accept Riverside's offer of $15,000 to each of us, rather than go to trial. (This made the total award for the 6 of us come to $90,000). Mike, in answer to your request, you have my permission to obtain any existing records on this case. The trial was held in a Vista (the sister town of Oceanside) courtroom around 1985 or 1986. I think it was called Pizer vs Oceanside. Mike, you also asked for some personal information. I am answering those questions here: Trudy and I were married in 1958. We were highschool sweethearts. I went to work for my father as a salesman in 1958 in the family seat cover business. Around 1966, I left my father and sold automobiles (mostly new Fords) intermingled with owning a sales agency (working as a manufacturer's rep for 5 auto parts manufacturers). During that time, I also owned a radio and television broadcasting school. Mike, you have often characterized me as a used car salesman for having sold cars for a few years in my earlier days. I did sell cars for a few years in the late 1960's. There were some sales, although not illegal, I would now consider inappropriate. They involved using high pressure techniques, embellishment and deception, in selling cars. These sales were when I was in the early training stage and was asked (At the time I felt "forced" to go along with management) to participate in various forms of high pressure acts. Since joining Alcor, I have been honest and open about these events of the late 1960's. I feel I have learned from things I did and what I saw done in those years. In 1970, while still a car salesman, I suffered a very sobering experience with the death of my two daughters in a house fire. Immediately after the accident, I was unable to work and spent a month sitting around at my mother-in-law's house reflecting on my past life. During that period, I came to the conclusion that I would like to try to lead a more worthwhile life. Around 1970, after my father died, and after we lost our daughters, Trudy and I returned to the family seat cover business in Phoenix which was in terrible financial condition. The business owed about $20,000.00 in old bills and had 3 employees and only 2 or 3 thousand dollars in assets. As a way of trying to forget my anguish, We plunged ourselves into trying to save the company. With hard work and a lot more luck, Trudy and I turned that business around and made money by the mid 1970's. At our high point, in this business, we owned 9 seat cover stores, a seat cover factory, a wholesale upholstery supply company, an (in house) advertizing agency and several real estate investments. In the 1980's we sold several of the seat cover stores as the real estate had become too valuable for the continued operations of seat cover businesses. (People kept making Trudy and I offers we could not refuse). Today, Trudy and I own: A seat cover business which we franchise out certain rights to 4 retail stores, and which is involved with me doing business consulting; an (in-house) advertizing agency; 5 commercial buildings, two houses (one is a cabin-trailer in a Flagstaff); several pieces of bare real estate, with near-future development value. In addition we carry contracts on real estate we have sold, we own a couple of older motels, and have other investments. We have also owned other motels, a water company, and recently we have started a new wholesale distribution business with our friend, Forrest Munden (an Alcor member). My education includes 3 years at West Phoenix High School with a later GED diploma. Early in life I took a lot of business courses at Glendale Community College and some natural science courses at Phoenix Community College. About 10 years ago I became interested in my educations again and became what they call a "re-entry" student. I took in classes at ASU and Cal-State and recently received my degree in Political Science from ASU. My social and community service has included over 30 years in the Optimist International Organization. Among other positions, I have been club president and Arizona District Secretary. I have been a Big Brother twice and was chosen to do media ads for the Big Brother agency in Arizona years ago. I have been on the volunteer staff at the Barrow Neurological Institute in Phoenix. I will list only a few of the things I have done in conjunction with Alcor as for me to list them all would sound self-serving. In the 1988 Dora Kent raid, with 5 others, I was taken into custody for refusing to leave the area and for refusal to obey orders to quit taking pictures. As mentioned above, I later put up the $6.000 retainer to file suit which won us a total of $90,000. I invested into the Symbex building. I made the first Pizer Tanks for Alcor at no charge. I have given donations to Alcor over the years and continue to. I have my dog, Pandora, in storage at Alcor. In disclosure to financial help to other Directors I submit: I have given some Directors, (and other Alcor friends) free housing at my motel in Wrightwood for short periods. Trudy and I have had staff members and Directors stay in our houses in Phoenix and Wrightwood. I gave one Director money ($200.00) to help with moving expenses and also helped with previous airfare. Since all directors have now agreed to report any contributions (over $100) you will soon be able to go to Alcor and inspect this file. For a while I have been making a $300.00 per month donation to the Alcor staff. As you know, some of the staff are Directors. Last I would like to reply to Saul. Saul, you said in your last posting (on the subject of your [not] answering questions about your past in cryonics)) that you don't believe that Cryonet is an appropriate forum for discussion of highly complex events in the history of cryonics which took place over long periods of time. Although I believe Cryonet it a good place for you to answer the concerns of Alcor members about your past because it is the forum where every member can read your answers and they can have the opportunity to ask questions as the history unfolds. Saul, you have operated in the public, often in this very forum, when you wanted things and influenced Alcor in the past. However, if you would like to suggest another forum, I am willing to cooperate with you. Saul, you choose to have influence over Alcor. Our lives are in the balance. Before the Board, (and other Alcor members) listens to your suggestions and submits to your influence, I feel they have an obligation to learn as much about your history in cryonics as possible so that they can make informed judgments on your recommendations and council. I hope that you too will reflect on your past history and remember past mistakes and try not to repeat them. Saul, it there was any way that I could convince you that I am not trying to embarrass you, that I honestly feel that you need to be more careful when you use your influence on Alcor in the future and that we could all be better off from this whole discussion, I would be satisfied. In closing: Saul, your refusal to discuss with me, and my insistence on discussing with you, the subject of what happened at the Cryonics Society of New York, and other matters, has gotten out of hand. I am sorry that my first set of questions were asked the way they were. (Perhaps I was feeling some of that "moral outrage" you felt in the Dick Jones matter, and the tone of my questions demonstrates why moral outrage can sometimes be counter-productive). In the meantime, Mike Perry and Steve Bridge are trying to be mediators in this, and I appreciate that. Therefore I am willing to ask my questions to you privately with the help of Mike and Steve. Maybe if we keep the questions private we can reduce what appears to be arguing. Would you prefer this to a public discussion? I await your response. Sincerely, David Pizer Rate This Message: http://www.cryonet.org/cgi-bin/rate.cgi?msg=1727