X-Message-Number: 17289 From: "john grigg" <> Subject: cryonics and religion have something to do with one another Date: Thu, 16 Aug 2001 03:44:28 Thomas Donaldson wrote: 1. About religion and cryonics: Religion and cryonics have nothing to do with one another. We see this already when we read about the advances in reviving people with stopped heart and breathing. Right now with suitable equipment and drugs (and the right circumstances) it can be done after 10 minutes, not the 5 or 4 minutes people used to talk about. Where is the discussion of religion when this is done? (end) It is accepted by the mainstream now, and so there is no big religious conflict/debate. But, for the fundamentalist Baptist, Mormon, etc., there probably is going to be a connection seen between religion and cryonics. This is a sociological issue, with real people and institutions again seeing a connection where you feel there is none. As a protest sign read in Linda Nagata's cryonics novel _Tech Heaven_, "you can't escape hell in a freezer." lol And for someone like me who wants to try to be a good Mormon AND be a cryonicist, there is going to be a lot of stress and soul searching. My church does not yet have an official position on cryonics, but it may formulate one in response to a letter my friend Brent Allsop plans to send them. I will know more then. My gut feeling is that my church will have an official stance of neutrality regarding cryonics, but in attitude view it negatively as a sign of weak faith in the existance of God and the afterlife. I will be curious to see if a Mormon signed up for cryonics will be able to get a temple recommend. This "pass" is given to a member who has been interviewed and found worthy(doesn't drink, pays tithing, faithful to mate, honors the sabbath, active in church, honest in personal dealings, free of serious grudges, etc.) by his local leaders to attend the temple. The temple is where many of the most esteemed rituals of the faith are performed. Marriage for the span of eternity is one of the ordinances done. For Mormon young people marriage there, and not in an outside civil ceremony, is usually of the keenest importance. I think if "cryonics" moved up into being fully-reversible suspended animation, we would see it being accepted by almost all. Then the mainstream would embrace it as a sure way to save a child with a terminal disease, or give a mortally wounded auto accident victim another chance later on. But, what we have now is fringe science because there is no guarantee it will work. No person has been brought back yet! So, it is viewed as a slightly "kooky and macabre" method of stepping into God's territory. A replacement of a sort, where "scientific faith" is substituted for religious faith. I know many of you will say cryonics does not take faith, but many a mainstream cryobiologist might disagree with you. lol Thomas Donaldson wrote: Ultimately whether or not there is a God (even a God with a personality) means nothing at all to us unless that God somehow constantly interferes in our lives. Given the size of the Universe and the importance of the Earth, and our own history, there's not been any sign at all that God has bothered to intervene in our affairs, nor that he/she ever will. (end) So many educated Christians would argue with you on this one(far better educated then me). I have felt God's presence in my life at times. You have to be open to it. Perhaps we should agree to disagree with this one. you continue: Just what we do with our lives, as a consequences, depends on our parents, friends, and our own background. God or not. If we really want to know what to do with ourselves (short term or long term) then we examine ourselves and those around us. WE must set our own purposes, and no God or other creature can do that. Yes, we set our purposes based on our genetics and history, but WE INDIVIDUALLY remain the responsible party to do that. Giving that task to God merely gives one more way to fool ourselves about what we're really doing. (end) Except for the last line I totally agree with you. I do believe through reading scripture and prayer we can get some guidance. Funny, I remember a church service where my leaders said some people needed to actually do more of what you suggest. They said some members would overdo it on demanding God's guidance on every little detail of their life. you continue: Naturally this issue also goes into the issue of what we do as immortalists. Here I can say little not said before. WE INDIVIDUALLY believe that WE should change ourselves to become immortal. That is sufficient. To try to put the responsibility on imaginary beings is not an effective way to think out the problem. (end) Speaking only for myself, I just want a mere millennia or two of extra life! ;) Then I will probably be ready to "break on through to the other side!" you continue: >God is worse than nonexistent. HE/SHE is irrelevant. We will see.., eventually. And you may find out sooner rather then later if your cancer returns with a vengeance. I certainly hope that is not the case. On my bicycle ride home I could be struck by a car. That actually happened to me several years ago, but fortunately I walked/limped away from it while my bike was ruined beyond repair. Mike Perry wrote: Some are perhaps unhappy with discussions of God and theological subjects as being "off-topic" for this forum. Cryonics is, after all, basically a medical procedure, isn't it? But my feeling is that the theological issues are relevant too. More than in most fields we must be concerned with *why* we are advocating what we propose (cryopreservation after clinical death) as well as just the procedure itself. That is because our overall goal of conquering death is a very radical one. It raises many questions that need addressing, and not just those dealing with cryopreservation protocols and the like, though they are certainly important. Other topics, including the religious, are also important, and they too deserve a hearing. (end) I totally agree with Mike. As cryonics moves much more into the public eye(construction of Timeship, Ventureville, etc.) we will see religious individuals and organizations taking us into very serious consideration. We must be prepared. The latest Extro which I attended really covered in detail how movements and organizations like ours can deal positively with the mass media and public. When Natasha Vita-More gets Pro-Act going perhaps she can give us all some pointers. Maybe even the old pros around here might need her help. best wishes, John Grigg _________________________________________________________________ Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com/intl.asp Rate This Message: http://www.cryonet.org/cgi-bin/rate.cgi?msg=17289