X-Message-Number: 17380
From: "George Smith" <>
References: <>
Subject: More on beyond good and evil.
Date: Sat, 25 Aug 2001 12:55:19 -0700

In Message #17374 Mike Perry mentioned my quote (from #17363)
>...
>Some one suggests that they must have a positive value.
>
>But why?

and then Mike Perry responded:

"I find it *inspiring* to think that I *and* others have positive value, and
I think this can also be justified, even for "bad" people or beings, who
actually have some good in them (this thought too is inspiring!). (Note
here: I don't say *a* positive value, just positive value, to emphasize
that you don't need to worry, always, about the details! Warm fuzziness has
its place!) This principle of valuing is an important source of meaning and
comfort in my life and I find it very worthy of upholding. Need I say more?"

Mike, in order to have a "positive value" it must be measured against
something else whether that is a greater or lesser "positive" value or a
negative value.  "Value" comes from making an evaluation, a measuring, a
judgment.

There is no need to judge yourself as having any value at all, positive or
negative.  To do so assumes that you must first HAVE a value and then on top
of that you can go ahead an evaluate what you DO.  I have consistently found
that skipping the superstition of "self evaluation" makes it far easier to
perform the critically important task of evaluating what one DOES in the
context of what one finds desirable or not.

I have tried to explain in detail in previous postings why placing a value
on one's own self is (1) not possible in the first place and (2) always
detrimental (as it immediately introduces existential anxiety over the issue
of the possibility of not being certain you will always measure up and
because of the unnecessary human pain which inevitably results given enough
time).  As I have attempted to explain earlier, the entire Deathist
(anti-cryonics) perspective comes, I believe, from the culturally popular
error and delusion of self evaluation.  ("Do I DESERVE to live forever?")

I have also tried to explain that for those who will attempt to break free
of self judgement in any area of their life, they quickly discover how it
improves the quality of living, their effectiveness in operating in the
world and even their potential capacity for survival.

Now the flip side of this issue is to NOT automatically grant its opposite.
To assume a prior positive value for people in general may give you a warm
fuzzy but it comes at the expense of clouding your perception of their
actions and the evaluation of those actions in any particular context.  This
can then produce a lifetime of cold pricklies.

A NEUTRAL stance toward judging other people fits a universe in which your
judgement of any value is imposed by your judgement.  "Do unto others as
they do unto you" is a better way of summing this up insofar as JUDGING
their value in your life is concerned.

I can't remember all the times I have had a patient describe a family member
who is fundamentally sociopathic in their behavior toward the patient but
the patient's "problem" is "I feel guilty when I am angry at my
father/mother/spouse for killing my dog, burning my car and beating me with
a crowbar because, after all, he/she IS my father/mother/spouse and I am
SUPPOSED to love/respect them.  I would be a BAD person if I don't
love/respect them."

But of course that is precisely what the patient needs to do: JUDGE that
person's actions and STOP assigning himself a value ("bad")!

If we ascribe a prior positive value to people just because they EXIST then
we inhibit our own ability to then make further judgements about them based
upon their subsequent actions.  People do this all the time as with the
stock market.  They first DECIDE if the market has a positive or negative
value (it's a bull market or a bear market), and then they are less able to
recognize the actual behavior of the market to draw correct conclusions (due
to the psychological issue of selective perception - we see what we expect
to see and don't tend to see what we do not expect to see).  Thus 90% of
investors continuously can be counted upon to buy high and sell low.

NOT placing a value on your own self but then being fully willing to
evaluate what you or anyone else does WITHOUT PRECONCEPTIONS gives anyone a
better chance of perceiving what IS there and avoiding delusion and the
resultant problems which come from such delusions.

When we presume that all living human beings already have a positive value
(for whatever reason given) we are then starting from a premise which is
already out of alignment with reality.  We feel a need to "prove" this
assumption and, due to our psychological makeup, we distort our perceptions
before they even become conscious.  (As in the experiments with identifying
playing cards in which some had the colors of red and black reversed.
Subjects would identify a spade as a heart because it was red while staring
at it and saying things like, "But there is something funny about this heart
card").

It is so much easier and helpful to simply assume nothing about the value of
anyone or anything until there is something to base that upon. ("Sometimes a
cigar is just a cigar," - Sigmund Freud).
 Taking a neutral, no value, viewpoint may deny one the pleasant feelings
that "all of humanity is basically good" but it will never leave you
standing in line at Auschwitz through your own error either.

It is also important to recognize that all of these judgements are YOURS and
not some universal external standard to which all others must agree.
Further, YOU are judging only SOME actions of others, as it is quite
impossible to judge them ALL. Errors will happen.  And finally, human
redemption in YOUR eyes is potentially possible depending upon both what
changes in behavior the "condemned" make and whether or not YOU feel these
are sufficient to deserve a re evaluation.

Additionally, I personally feel that assigning a positive evaluation to
those people who demonstrate they deserve your praise and assigning a
negative evaluation to those who demonstrate they deserve your condemnation
INTENSIFIES the degree of these emotional experiences.  "Unconditional love"
has always been an oxymoron in my opinion.  To move in that direction
weakens the intensity of both love and fear.

To take a neutral stance toward people (and all experiences) in general is
not to see that as either good or bad but just simply un valued.  Then the
probability that your judgements about specific actions by specific people
will be accurate and therefore useful will increase.

Dr. Nathaniel Brandon, a California psychologist and early proponent of the
teachings of Ayn Rand, once made a lecture entitled "The Benevolent
Universe".  I consider Brandon wrong.  The universe is neither benevolent
nor malevolent.  It is neutral.  It is beyond good and evil.

We ASSIGN meaning and value to our experiences.  That this is true is easily
demonstrated.  We do it all the time.  Really good films or novels cause us
to evaluate the plot situation and we have to re evaluate everything as we
go.  Surprise endings which do this are entertaining because they cause us
to have to immediately re evaluate everything we just saw.  (The innocent
man freed by the hero in the courtroom turns out to actually be the serial
killer, for example).

You can easily demonstrate it for yourself.  Just drop assigning a value to
yourself in any chosen context, substitute evaluating your experiences (YOUR
actions, thoughts, feeling, OTHER people and the rest of reality) and see
what happens.  What I have found happens is (1) release from existential
anxiety (due to dropping a delusion), (2) more happiness and (3) less pain.

Just my opinion.

George Smith
CI member

Rate This Message: http://www.cryonet.org/cgi-bin/rate.cgi?msg=17380