X-Message-Number: 17494 Date: Mon, 10 Sep 2001 01:33:22 -0400 Subject: Rosewatergate? Afraid Not. From: In Message #17477, Miss Clarissa Wells asked why Barry Albin replaces cryonics patients' blood with 'rose water'. He doesn't. Not at all. CI has specific solutions which it provides to the funeral directors whom it uses and trains for on-the-spot support in treating members. Funeral directors are clearly and repeatedly told to use only recommended procedures and solutions. To vary from them in not only a violation of our contractual agreement but quite possibly of legal statutes. Mr. Albin has been instructed in CI protocols by mail, email, and telephone, and has twice visited CI headquarters itself in Michigan for further instruction. He does not use 'rose water' for perfusate. Period. Why then did he mention rose water? To quote from Mr. Albin's response to Robert Ettinger, who immediately wrote him upon learning of the remark: >> ... I am fully aware of the technical procedures of the perfusion, having assisted you now on a number of occasions. My reference to Rose Water is no more than a freudian slip. I do use a product called "Glycerine Rose Water" in my fleet of vehicles and in that context the "Rose Water" is actually de-ionised, distilled water. To me the term Rose Water is synonymous with "soft" water. Please be assured that I do not add anything to your solutions... I was asked to address an audience which is made up predominantly of the general public. From my experience they want to know that the processes involved in cryonics are "nice and comforting". It is easy therefore to take these comments out of context if one applies a scientific slant to them. << In short, Mr. Albin simply misspoke, rather the way President Gerald Ford misspoke during a presidential debate during the 1980's when he claimed that East Europe was not dominated by the Soviet Union. Of course, it was, and he knew it, and his administration knew it, and even as he was saying it, a comprehensive and extensively well-thought-out policy was in place actively dealing with Eastern Europe. Ford simply made, to use Barry Albin's words, 'a slip'. Which of us has not? We all have, we all will, and -- if we are adults -- we will understand and move on to more substantive things. Needless to say, keeping Mr. Albin's slip perpetually online would only serve to misinform others. I've written the site asking that it be removed. Of course, when anyone makes a slip publicly nowadays, there are always a few people out there who take the opportunity to indulge in fairly infantile ridicule. And sure enough: as a flock of courageously anonymous email has already gone out here and there on the net. Miss Wells' question is certainly not in that category: it is quite understandable and appropriate. And the answer to it is simple: no, there are no bizarre 'rose water' or 'cosmetic' additives to CI solutions. There is no reason to use rose water, CI doesn't use it, and Barry Albin doesn't use it on CI patients. All of which is, after all, kind of obvious. He simply made a 'slip', as he says, and immediately expressed his regrets for making it. That's all there is to the story. Coming rather generously to CI's aid on this topic, Mr. Charles Platt wrote: >> Indeed, one of the great advantages of CI over other cryonics organizations is that its protocols are reviewed by independent labs.<< Yes, that is indeed one of the great advantages of CI over other cryonics organizations. Thank you for pointing it out to readers, Charles. No other cryonics organization is having its protocols reviewed by independent labs, nor is any other organization making the results public. Nor, for that matter, has any other organization posted the composition of its solutions, as CI has. See http://www.cryonics.org. (And for information on the qualifications on funeral directors as well.) Is rose water - ie distilled water - a component of any currently utilized vitro-goop? Beats me. No one's telling us what's in it. Thanks again to Charles for bringing this heartening distinction to the readership's attention. > > No doubt the utility of rose water has been fully investigated and sanctioned by the Canadians.<< Not in connection with CI or CI solutions. As the CI page indicates, CI does not use rose water. Obviously. Just a simple misstatement on Mr. Albin's part. Again, thanks to Charles for pointing out the basic absurdity of the charge. >> I can't resist forwarding the following, which was sent to me by someone who prefers not to post to CryoNet personally. To those who object to anonymous or pseudonymous posts--just blame it on me.<< Dear me, why in the world would anyone objecting to anonymous or pseudonymous postings blame Charles Platt? I much prefer to read his own admirable prose; for example, Message #17412, in which, regarding the charge that Alcor President Jerry Lemler went in search of Noah's Ark, Charles wrote the following words of genuine wisdom: >> As I understand it. Dr. Lemler went in search of a legend. He might just as well have gone to Egypt looking at pyramids. Whatever. Personally I have no interest in what he does in his spare time. All I care about is what he does at Alcor. Thus far, he has shown exemplary use of his knowledge and experience, gained from his professional activities in an emergency room and as a psychiatrist," adding "If Jerry Lemler wants to spend his next vacation looking for the Holy Grail, that's fine by me--just so long as he keeps achieving good results in cryopreservations at Alcor.<< Isn't that very well put, everyone? Quite right. If a person is qualified and competent, as I have no doubt Jerry Lemler is, silly attacks are really not called for. I, personally, do not think that there is anything wrong with going on an archeological dig, and indeed I compliment Dr. Lemler on his sense of curiosity and adventure. Which is why neither I, nor any other CI member, commented on the issue. Yet, when a CI agent makes an obviously incorrect slip of the tongue, anonymous emails careen across the web, and even so fair-minded and just a critic as Charles feels obliged to bring these mystery tidbits to public attention. How odd. We rightly respect expertise and brush away criticisms and counsel exclusive focus on knowledge and experience in one case; we pop anomymous posts around and then make them public to give the knife just that little extra twist in the other. Ah well -- that's what Cryonet the jolly place that it is, I suppose. As Charles said in the same post, "One problem with the Web is that any idiot can dig up something embarrassing about anyone." Guess so. David Pascal P.S. It occurred to me that the CI web site, being rather large, might be difficult to navigate for information on funeral directors. I could post the whole thing anonymously, of course, but instead I thought I'd cut and paste a small section of it on the qualifications of funeral directors. The conditions are not exactly similar for British directors, of course, but a general equivalence holds for Western nations. I do think it gives some sense of the technical competence and legal oversight funeral directors have. Quote: "Are they [funeral directors] qualified? It's been said that funeral directors are not as competent to provide adequate treatment as people instructed in the procedure (which is a strange charge, since it is precisely instruction in the procedure that CI provides funeral directors.) "But look at the facts. The training of a certified cryotransport technician -- certified by a private, unregulated organization unauthorized by the state or any regulatory bodies -- may take place in the course of two or three days. How does a funeral director compare? The web site of the American Board of Funeral Service Education, an agency recognized by the United States commissioner of Education, and which accredits mortuary colleges and programs, states that to qualify as a funeral director, most states require a combination of postsecondary education (at minimum an Associate Degree in Funeral Service Education), passage of the National Board Examination, and service as an apprentice for one or two years. A Funeral Service Education curriculum generally can require at least 60 semester (90 quarter) hours of academic course work. Most programs also require the successful completion of practicum time within a funeral home. "As the ABFSE notes, "The curriculum in Funeral Service is comprised of the following courses: Sciences, including micro-biology, pathology, chemistry, anatomy, embalming and restorative art; Business, including small business management, funeral home management and computer skills; Social Sciences, including history and sociology of funeral service, psychology of grief and bereavement counseling; Law and Ethics, including business law, funeral service law and funeral service ethics." Similarly, the baccalaureate degree program in Mortuary Science and Funeral Service offered at one public university in Illinois includes course work to prepare the student for the National Board Examination and requirements for licensure within the profession, and is accredited by the American Board of Funeral Service Education and meets licensing requirements of the Illinois Department of Professional Regulations. "Course work includes laboratory work and studies in, to quote from the online curriculum, "the anatomy of the circulatory system, the autopsied case, the cavity embalming, the contents of the thoracic and abdominal cavities, and various embalming treatments," as well as "sanitation, embalming agents, instruments, and methods of embalming," mortuary anatomy studies focusing on "the structure and function of the human body as a whole including: general organization, structural organization, tissues, skeletal system, nervous system, circulatory system, glands, respiratory system, digestive system, genitourinary system, muscle, integument, and special senses," enbalming chemistry studies covering "the chemistry of the body, sanitation, toxicology, chemical changes in deceased human remains, disinfection, and embalming fluids," plus "microbiology: morphology, structure, physiology, populations of microbial organisms, microbial destruction, immunology, and pathogenic agents," pathology studies involving "the cause, course and effects of diseases upon the human body with stress on ways in which tissue changes affect the embalming process," not to mention special studies in "techniques and procedures used for embalming unique cases such as floaters, burn victims, car accident victims and other traumatic faces of death." Further information on training criteria for funeral directors is available via the Healthweb link to the University of Minnesota Bio-Medical Library s extensive section Mortuary Science. "The notion, therefore, that funeral directors are by definition inferior to individuals who may have no medical qualifications and whose private non-state-regulated training may consist of two or three days of instruction, is simply ridiculous. It may be true that a fully qualified medical doctor performing the procedure may have more general expertise; but even there we should recall that cryonic suspension is not a part of conventional medical training, and that no doctor is instructed in it at any medical university or hospital. They, like funeral directors, are practiced in related techniques only, and have to learn the new procedure entirely afresh. But even a fully qualified medical doctor does not do every few days what a funeral director does every few days: perform on human bodies a procedure that involves entirely removing the blood and replacing it with a preservative solution. Even in such cases the relative level of experience and experience-related expertise favors the funeral director. "Funeral directors can often do the job of initial preparation more quickly, more expertly, more safely, at far less expense, and with much less hassle, than traveling teams. So why not go with what works?" Rate This Message: http://www.cryonet.org/cgi-bin/rate.cgi?msg=17494