X-Message-Number: 17577 Date: Sun, 16 Sep 2001 23:09:22 +0100 From: Philip Rhoades <> Subject: Islam etc Mike, >As someone who has spent extensive time in the Middle East visiting numerous >Islamic states and territories, and being allowed access to infrastructure >there that few in the West ever see, I can tell you that what has happened on >the US Eastern Seaboard this Tuesday last is no fluke. Further, it will not >be un-repeated without global conflict to resolve the very fundamental >differences between two systems of value and fundamental ways of viewing >reality. Do you think that it is not possible to resolve the problems peacefully at all? What I am thinking is that the US has had a long history of bad foreign policy decisions and I half suspect that if things had been handled better (Palestinian land, Gulf War etc) that the US might not now find itself the target of such hatred. >I have had Iftar with all classes of people during Ramadan; breaking bread >and sharing thoughts with many, many Muslims. I met and came to like several >Middle Eastern Islamic families and individuals. (I make the distinction here >between Islam and "Arabs" because some were non-Arabs; Nubians and Persians). The problem as I see it is: if the US responds with an iron fist it will unite all Muslims against the US and thereby provoke another, bigger wave of people who are prepared to martyr themselves for the cause. >This paralysis was achieved using low cost application of our best technology >against us in a way that awes me. Given the perpetrators goals, the cost to >benefit ratio is beyond my full comprehension at this time. Some people have been quoting a trillion dollars of damage produced by some planning and people with knives and box openers for weapons. >If current probable cause turns into reasonable certainty, then it will be >abundantly clear to me who the enemy is. And no, don't think it's Osama bin >Laden or any one bogey man held up for the expedience of the moment; it is >deeper, far deeper. Exactly! - but what is the solution? I mean the US subsidised a lot of the current demons in the beginning (Hussein, Taliban, bin Laden . . ) doesn't this mean that a completely different approach is in order? >And any political surgeon who emerges from the theater of >war after a lumpectomy and tells you "Don't worry, we got it all," Great analogy! >is either >a fool, a dupe, or a traitor to the civilization that underpins cryonics. >Make no mistake, the charge Tuesday is but a small debit against a very large >account of Islamic hate as a result of US support of Israel and of capitalism >and freedom as we understand it. Scary stuff alright. >If this is the "first war of the 21st century" then it is far from over. Any >cryonics organization will be very lucky indeed to have access to liquid >nitrogen, let alone the energy and engineering skills required to obviate its >use at the end of such a war. Cryonicists are peculiarly susceptible to the >belief that technology will protect them from all terrible outcomes and they >seem not to learn or want to the lesson that Vietnam had to teach the US. Yes, but it is bit ironic - I saw a British documentary a couple of weeks ago that showed how British American Tobacco (BAT) had been smuggling illegal cigarettes into VIet Nam for years and have now finally forced the Vietnamese (Communist) government into a "joint venture" with the state owned tobacco company! >When Lindbergh overflew most of the world mapping routes for Pan Am he was >deeply shaken by observing the "skeletons" of once great and sophisticated >civilizations from the air (I have had the same experience). Which ones are these? Egypt? Greece? Rome? >He was not >optimistic about the future of our civilization unless it changed radically >in its belief that technology alone was sufficient to its survival. Without a >moral center he felt certain that technology would the source of the >destruction of Western Civilization. Short-sighted self interest, >over-optimism, and moral expediency were the real enemies he was concerned >about. I believe in this he was right. I think there is something to this but as an atheist I think there has to be some sort of humanist solution or at least a situation where religious types can tolerate all the other types . . I have the view that organised religion and greed have caused most of history's disasters . . I probably have some differences of opinion with you about some things but I believe you quite frequently get to the fundamental questions on a lot of your posts. Having said that I don't really understand some things - the bitterness between you and Ettinger for example - but I probably don't want to get involved in that either . . R&LL, Phil. - Philip Rhoades Pricom Pty Limited (ACN 003 252 275) GPO Box 3411 Sydney NSW 2001 Australia Mobile: +61:0411-185-652 Fax: +61:2:8923-5363 E-mail: Rate This Message: http://www.cryonet.org/cgi-bin/rate.cgi?msg=17577