X-Message-Number: 1796 Date: 22 Feb 93 03:51:08 EST From: Mike Darwin <> Subject: CRYONICS Use of Liquid Nitrogen From: Mike Darwin To: Michael Riskin, All Re: Use of liquid nitrogen Date: 21 February, 1993 Michael Riskin asks if it wouldn't make more sense to determine the temperature you want and then find the right coolant. The answer is yes. The longer answer is that this has already been done. Not that many things which are safe to use or are economical to use boil at the right temperatures. Noble gases such as argon, xenon, etc., are not cheap. Other compounds with suitable boiling points are toxic and/or corrosive. Nitrogen is cheap, readily available, nontoxic and inert. The fact that it is colder than we'd like poses some engineering difficulties, but not in my opinion insurmountable ones. Why continue to use liquid nitrogen? Because it is so safe in so many ways. The alternative is a mechanical system employing a recycled refrigerant. These systems are very difficult to operate: they are costly, they break down all the time, they require a duplicate unit to sit idle as a back-up...and they are unsafe because of the problems associated with them, including the problem of power failure. Liquid nitrogen doesn't break, doesn't suffer from power failures, etc. In principle it should be possible to build a room-sized system with the patients racked floor to ceiling in pods with access aisles that staff could walk around in (in well insulated and electrically heated clothing + an air supply). The only electricity that would be required would be to operate fans, (plus the thermostat and solenoids) to keep the gas stirred and back-up fans using compressed air motors would be present which could operate from LN2 in the event of a power failure. The solenoids and thermostat could operate from battery power for a long while. Basically what I'm describing here is a large insulated room with a medium pressure cryogenic dewar in it. The dewar would be inside the room in order to increase the effeciency of the system by minimizing heat leak into the LN2 reservoir (in effect using the vapor temperature room as a heat shield). The dewar would be a medium pressure unit (50 to 100 psi?) so that in the event of a power failure a valve requiring power to keep it closed, would open and dump liquid to an external heat exchanger to generate compressed nitrogen to run the fans. The nice thing about this design is that it is all off the shelf: dewars, heat exchangers and so on are all standard equipment used by hospitals to drive their medical oxygen system by liquifying and "compressing" LOX. What's more, this stuff turns up used or surplused for almost nothing out here. In fact, at the moment there is an incredible glut of such hardware as the aerospace industry is melted down. For sometime I have wanted to test the workability of working in a -135*C environment. I have repeatedly asked Alcor management for permission to do this, but they are too afraid of liability and have refused to allow me to carry out the experiment. Soon, however I should be able to try it. We will soon have a large insulated cargo container dropped off here (4 inches of urethane foam on all sides) and it is already plumbed for liquid nitrogen refrigeration. I plan to go into this unit after cooling it to -135*C wearing heavily insulated garb over a heated flight suit. Of course I will also bring my own air supply! I want to see how long I can work and stay in such an environment before becoming uncomfortable. I have been very frustrated by the irrational fears I've heard expressed about conducting this experiment because I have already had my hands (with and without gloves) and indeed my whole upper body in -140*C environments (and at Alcor I might add!) many times: this was achieved by leaning into partially filled whole body dewars during patient transfers practically up to the waist. Yes, it gets very cold very fast, but it isn't instant death as long as you don't breathe. (In fact, I have had my arms without gloves or any protection up to the elbow in liquid nitrogen and am none the worse for wear.) The key here is solid respiratory support. Good gloves greatly extend the working time. Heated gloves might prolong it more or less indefinitely. If it can be demonstrated that short periods of useful work can be done in this environment by persons who are properly clothed and outfitted, then a major barrier to the use of room-sized enclosures will have been overcome. Rate This Message: http://www.cryonet.org/cgi-bin/rate.cgi?msg=1796