X-Message-Number: 1814
From: 
Subject: CRYONICS Darwin LN2 Proposal
Date: Wed, 24 Feb 93 01:22:06 PST

February 23, 1993
>From Steve Bridge, President
Alcor Life Extension Foundation

Reply to Mike Darwin's Message: #1796 - Use of Liquid Nitrogen

Basically, this is a fascinating message and all of us should applaud 
Mike, Bob Ettinger, and others for continuing to push for improvements 
in all areas of suspension storage.

This will seem a bit defensive, but I do want to reply to one implied 
criticism of Alcor management.


>     For sometime I have wanted to test the workability of working in 
>a -135*C environment.  I have repeatedly asked Alcor management for 
>permission to do this, but they are too afraid of liability and have 
>refused to allow me to carry out the experiment.  Soon, however I 
>should be able to try it.  We will soon have a large insulated cargo 
>container dropped off here (4 inches of urethane foam on all sides) 
>and it is already plumbed for liquid nitrogen refrigeration.  I plan 
>to go into this unit after cooling it to -135*C wearing  heavily 
>insulated garb over a heated flight suit.  Of course I will also 
>bring my own air supply!  I want to see how long I can work and stay 
>in such an environment before becoming uncomfortable.  

>     I have been very frustrated by the irrational fears I've heard 
>expressed about conducting this experiment because I have already had 
>my hands (with and without gloves) and indeed my whole upper body in 
>-140*C environments (and at Alcor I might add!) many times: this was 
>achieved by leaning into partially filled whole body dewars during 
>patient transfers practically up to the waist.  Yes, it gets very 
>cold very fast, but it isn't instant death as long as you don't 
>breathe. (In fact, I have had my arms without gloves or any 
>protection up to the elbow in liquid nitrogen and am none the worse 
>for wear.)  The key here is solid respiratory support.  Good gloves 
>greatly extend the working time.  Heated gloves might prolong it more 
>or less indefinitely.

>     If it can be demonstrated that short periods of useful work can 
>be done in this environment by persons who are properly clothed and 
>outfitted, then a major barrier to the use of room-sized enclosures 
>will have been overcome.


     A slight bit of management perspective is in order here.  I don't 
know what discussion Mike may have had with former President Carlos 
Mondragon or other Alcor Board members on this proposal.  What Mike 
asked me a few days ago (the first time I had heard this specific 
suggestion, by the way) was if he could come to Alcor, use one of our 
Bigfoot four-patient dewars (an empty one, of course), fill it with 
LN2 gas until it reached a temperature of -130 degrees C, suit up with 
an oxygen source, and be lowered in to see if he could work in that 
environment.

     If you were the new manager of a company, concerned with safety, 
and a non-employee -- uncovered by Workman's Compensation -- came to 
you and asked you if he could use your facilities to prove that an 
experiment which seemed dangerous wasn't really dangerous, what would 
you do?  Add in the fact that this person has been extremely critical 
of Alcor staff and management in the very recent past and that the 
current relationship between this person and Alcor is nervous at best, 
wouldn't you be reluctant to say "Yes" without great assurances?

     Supposedly Mike has some other perspectives on this experiment 
and ideas which might improve the safety (and my comfort level).  I'm 
willing to listen further.  We would like to improve our relationship 
with Mike and use our different abilities and facilities in a 
cooperative manner.  But decisions like this are never so simple as 
enthusiasm would lead people to hope for.  Just from the standpoint of 
human nature, I hope you all understand how difficult it is for us 
(and me) to evaluate moment to moment whether Mike is a friend, a 
colleague, a critic, or a competitor.  Each is possible.  All at the 
same time is even possible, but not without friction and not without a 
high price to pay in stress.

     Steve Bridge

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