X-Message-Number: 18257 From: "John de Rivaz" <> References: <> Subject: Re: How "Independent" is the European Cryonics Support Group? Date: Mon, 31 Dec 2001 09:35:22 -0000 Time is the enemy, and I can only make a short reply at present. If Charles or anyone at Alcor is willing to state what they offer to people living in the UK then I am happy to include it on the ECSG site in their own words (except that I would not want to include any bad-mouthing of other organisations). I have never refused any material offered by Alcor to state its position - indeed what there is I had to actively seek. If you check the "links" item from the menu, you will find (with web links): >>> Cryonics Organisations offering services throughout the world Cryonics Institute Kryos Biomedical Inc from - mid August 2001 Cryonics organisations offering services to resident US citizens (including immigrants) Alcor Alcor UK American Cryonics Society <<< I am pleased to alter this depending on what is or is not available. I had always understood that vitrification is wasted unless the deceased died near the facility, and hence I included immigration details on the web site. This seems totally logical to me. If Alcor is to offer non-vitrification services outside the US again (or my understanding above is false) then I will be pleased to include details, and Alan Sinclair has said that he is pleased to help any cryonicists. Some of the material on the web site was written by David Flude, and I will investigate ECSG's "Its officers are (and are required to be) members of CI." But even if they adhere to this, as long as it is CI's policy to help other cryonicists, I can't see it being too serious a problem. At the time ECSG was formed Alcor was not a provider in the UK so this was of no consequence. If it becomes one again, then obviously this needs to be considered carefully by both ECSG and Alcor. As far as I am aware Alcor now has no support team in the UK. -- Sincerely, John de Rivaz: http://www.deRivaz.com my homepage links to Longevity Report, Fractal Report, music, Inventors' report, an autobio and various other projects: http://www.geocities.com/longevityrpt http://www.autopsychoice.com - http://www.cryonics-europe.org - http://www.porthtowan.com ----- Original Message ----- From: "Charles Platt" <> To: "John de Rivaz" <>; "CryoNet" <> Cc: <> Sent: 30 December 2001 16:59 Subject: How "Independent" is the European Cryonics Support Group? > In personal email I have received a mild complaint from John de Rivaz (who > has always been extremely courteous toward me), suggesting that there were > "inaccuracies" in my report in CryoCare Forum about the British situation, > where a new support group claims to be unbiased yet requires all its > directors to be members of CI. I am sending a copy of this text to John so > that he can respond immediately if he wishes to do so. > > When you accuse a journalist of "inaccuracies," you'd better expect a > response. I felt sure that my report was correct, so I visited the UK site > (which is maintained by John as webmaster). I have to conclude that my > report contained no inaccuracies at all. Rather, it understated the > situation. > > Here's a reference to the European Support Group at the Cryonics Europe > web site at http://homepage.ntlworld.com/quantium/ce/ce.htm. Note the > phrase "which has this web site..." seems to mean that ECSG owns the > Cryonics Europe site; in other words, ECSG is the primary entity of which > Cryonics Europe is secondary. > > > Recently an association was formed called the European Cryonics Support > > Group (ECSG), which has this web site and its associated communication > > list. It consists primarily of British and other European members of the > > Cryonics Institute, plus individuals affiliated with other organizations > > or with none. Its officers are (and are required to be) members of CI. > > From the Cryonics Europe "officers and contacts" page one would conclude > that only a single cryonics services organization exists: > > > ECSG Website http://www.cryonics-europe.org > > ECSG List > > Main CI Website http://www.cryonics.org > > CI Free Online Newsletter > > http://www.egroups.com/message/long_life > > E-Mail Tel.01323-509836. > > Chairperson:Chrissie Loveday,Treasurer:Mark Walker > > Secretary: David Flude, WebMaster: John de Rivaz. > > Another page at the site, titled "The Global Membership Challenge," does > mention Alcor, but in the worst possible way: It reprints the year-old > statement from Linda Chamberlain which was instrumental in alienating many > UK members of Alcor. There is no indication whatsoever that Linda stepped > down from her role at Alcor many months ago. In fact, Linda is identified, > incorrectly, as Alcor's President and CEO. Also, there is no hint that the > Alcor policy regarding UK members is under review, or that Jerry Lemler > has made this one of his highest priorities and has announced his > intentions to visit the UK early in the year. > > Meanwhile, John de Rivaz suggests that *I* am guilty of biased reporting! > On the contrary, John: My report was correct, and the Euro support > organization to which you belong seems to have a deliberate policy of > misleading people. > > Note, none of this should be taken as implicit criticism of CI, since CI > seems to have had no role in it whatsoever, and the European site > emphasizes that it is not run by CI. > > While I have circulated my own complaints about Alcor's policy toward > European members (indeed, I think I was the first person to complain about > it on CryoNet), I recognize that sincere attempts are being made to revise > this policy. If Cryonics Europe is as neutral as it claims to be, it will > surely recognize these attempts. > > --Charles Platt > Rate This Message: http://www.cryonet.org/cgi-bin/rate.cgi?msg=18257