X-Message-Number: 18615
From: 
Date: Thu, 21 Feb 2002 15:13:10 EST

Subject: Heinlein/nanotech/chemical based beings/ cheap brain susp.. Cryonet 
#18602-18607

hmmm... Heinlein was the first to admit he missed some things...particularly 
the computer!  Ever read Starman Jones? The MacGuffin in that was that all 
the books that the Logarythm tables were printed in, on board the starship, 
were destroyed, so they couldn't steer the ship through hyperspace jumps to 
get home! LOL.  (still a wonderful, tense and exciting story- but dated)

As to nanotech, the possible evil that a ruthless person might use that for 
could wipe out all or a significant portion of the human race...  Heinlein 
wrote a story to spec for John W. Campbell about a "ray" that could kill 
people of certain races and leave others unscathed.  The scary thing about 
nanotech is that intelligence necessary to use nanotech doesn't also bestow 
the morality to use it properly.  I think about Vernor Vinge's Peace War 
series as a frightening cautionary tale about future history with high tech 
and crazy people with too much power.  

And as a final aside, I have a friend who works in medical research, DNA 
studies, etc... who laughs about nanotech.  He says its just so much easier 
to build a biological unit to do nanotech tasks that nanotech may eventually 
only have very very limited uses.  The "nanotech" that repairs the cryonics 
suspendee may be specially designed germs and viruses- in fact, instead of 
altering our own DNA, we may have retroviruses that permanently repair and 
maintain our bodies on a constant basis.  A very different kind of thinking- 
germs and viruses good- not bad!  (see, they aren't really evil, they've just 
been misunderstood for most of human history!)

Finally, thanks to all who responded to my query re human brain suspension, 
esp Robert Ettinger for his lucid reply.  The idea of structure vs function 
is clearly lucid- and the idea of a self circuit generated partially outside 
of the brain is interesting.  Still, discussing last ditch attempts at 
preservation, I suppose a brain containing memories placed in a regenerated 
body might still be enough of the original person to make it worth keeping- 
even if the self circuit might be new, the memories might guide the self 
circuit to similar function.  We've all heard stories of organ transplants 
affecting behavior and likes/dislikes of the recipient.  Is it total b.s. or 
is there something to it- or is it just any sort of trauma like an organ 
donation is going to affect a person?

I think, there is a narrow yet important grey area (pardon the pun) there.  
Here's a few thoughts and questions-

Isn't it easier legally to donate organs (including a brain) than to donate a 
whole human head for suspension?  ie, isn't it a lot easier to tell the 
docs/mortician/govt- "John Doe wanted his brain donated to Organization A for 
medical research" than "I want to cryonically suspend John Doe?"

Aside from possible trauma to the brain, isn't it easier to perfuse or 
otherwise infuse chemicals into a brain that is sans-skull?

Isn't there a significantly smaller volume involved in cryonically suspending 
a human brain vs human head?

and a two  part question- most importantly, are there any organizations out 
there willing to perform brain preservation for donor brains- maybe Mike 
Darwin's new company? here is my thinking-

1) a brain is donated to organization A.

2) the brain is removed from the body as per normal organ donation- sent to 
Organization A, perfused or chemically treated and then cooled to liquid 
nitrogen temp by organization A for a modest fee- maybe one or two or three 
thousand dollars? (I'm guessing as to fee structure- tell me how wrong I am! 
But it would have to be a fee you could cover by waving a credit card).  

3) the treated brain is then either stored at Organization A, or transferred 
to Organization B for long term storage- or possibly even returned to the 
family for LN2 storage.

Where and for what cost could this storage occur?  CI for their own strong 
reasons doesn't do brain or whole head preservation, and I would not argue 
with them that they are wrong.  Alcor is pretty darned expensive, 
(comparatively) for their own very strong reasons, and I would not argue with 
them that they are wrong.  Still, that leaves a gap for this idea, assuming 
you would want a cryonically suspended vs a chemically suspended brain.
Is there a cryogenics company that stores human tissue or organs that you 
could pay a modest monthly fee to for LN2 or dry ice storage, or ideally set 
up a small annuity trust to fund such a thing?  You could then place 
information with cryonics orgs and hopefully, over time, that annuity trust 
could through compounded interest pay to eventually transfer the brain to 
Alcor or another cryonics company.

Any info re cryogenics storage companies would be extremely helpful.

Information as to organ donor procedures would also be extremely helpful.

Information as to medical companies that could perform some form of brain 
perfusion, etc, would be extremely helpful.

BTW, there is no emergency I am planning on, just thinking about the future.

Heinlein wasn't suspended.  Its too bad, he was pretty darn cool.  And a real 
gentleman.

best,
Mike Donahue, thinking outside the envelope.

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